Santorum Suggests Obama Preferable to "Etch-A-Sketch" Romney.

latimes.com ^ | March 22, 2012 | Michael A. Memoli

[true believer forever]

Rick Santorum's latest attempt to use a Mitt Romney aide's "Etch-A-Sketch" remark against the Republican front-runner instead gave his rival a chance to fire back on Thursday, after Santorum seemed to say he'd rather see President Obama reelected than send Romney to the White House.

Speaking at an event in Texas, Santorum again made the case that Romney spokesman Eric Fehrnstrom's comments Wednesday on CNN about a "reset" of the campaign if Romney clinched the nomination showed the former Massachusetts governor's efforts to appeal to conservatives were insincere.

"You win by giving people the opportunity to see a different vision for our country, not someone who's just going to be a little different than the person in there," Santorum told a crowd in San Antonio, according to NBC News. "If you're going to be a little different, we might as well stay with what we have instead of taking a risk with what may be the Etch-A-Sketch candidate of the future."

[IceAge]

A “grown-up” approach to politics. We need more of this.
I would rather it be Newt, but he has baggage also.

At least, Romney can pull votes from the middle and left of middle who are disgusted with BO. Those folks would have a hard time voting for Santorum or Newt.

We should be discussing the VP pick and trying to send input thru polls to help the ticket win.
IMHO, this country cannot stand another 4 years of BO. If he wins, we will have a stampede of our citizens moving to Mexico and Canada. That would be the people who have funds to live down there and there goes more taxpayers. Then, who will pay for Michele’s vacations?

[reaganaut]

And that page STILL shows a great decline in membership. The Myth that the LDS church is growing is just that. It has been in greater and greater decline since the rise of the internet. I knew a guy who used to work in the church office building who said that the Name Removal Office was the fastest growing office and it bothered him. I know THREE Mormons (not related) who sent in resignation letters THIS week alone (2 in Ut, one in TN). All are lifelong members and were faithful (missions, temple marriage, etc).

Here is more info for you...notice how they no longer list number of deaths of members, no longer separate children of record baptisms from convert baptisms. This is the LDS version of Obama’s unemployment numbers.

I have posted this before, but here is some research I did on how the LDS have finessed their membership numbers. Also, if you don’t go through the name removal process (easier now but it used to be quite the problem), then they still count you as a member.
Actual numbers are hard to come by, since the LDS does not release the numbers of those who have left. Additionally, their convert numbers are not necessarily accurate since the report each April, the previous years numbers and by their own admission, convert retention rate past one year is less than 50%.
The 0% growth rate has been confirmed by someone in LDS headquaters, who stated that their only real growth is those born into the church.
There is also some question as to if those whose names are removed are still counted in the numbers, because their records are changed to “non-member” rather than destroyed.
Also, it has been said that “inactives” are not removed from the roles until after they would have been 110, regardless of date of death.
OTOH, Evangelical churches and ministries are reporting a large increase in those who are claiming to leave the LDS for a relationship with Jesus Christ. One Evangelical pastor I know in Utah states his congregation is almost 40% ex-LDS.
Other sites, like ex-mormon.org also show an increase in those leaving.
How the LDS finesses their numbers can be easily seen by how they have historically reported their membership numbers at General Conference.
They used to include number of deaths of members. They no longer do so.
They used to separate converts and BIC baptisms, they do not, which makes me question how many “converts” were actually Born LDS.
They used to have a separate category for the baptisms of “children of record”, that has disappeared. Some have speculated that they are now lumped together with converts.
Regarding the number of stakes/wards, I have read that they reorganize and consolidate stakes and call that a new stake. Also the numbers required for a ward/stake have decreased, so it looks like an increase. They have also closed a few missions (consolidated) but add the new mission to the old number.
The finessing of numbers has made it appear that the church is still growing, but outside sources tell another story, and now they are at least admitting it.
1974 -Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c57f61cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of Stakes of Zion at the Close of 1974 675
*
Number of Wards 4,756
*
Number of Independent Branches in Stakes 1,195
*
Total Wards and Independent Branches in Stakes at the Close of the Year 5,951
*
Number of Mission Branches at the Close of the Year 1,822
*
Number of Full-time Missions at the End of the Year 113
Church Membership, December 31, 1974
*
In the Stakes 2,960,143
*
In the Missions 425,766
*
Total Membership 3,385,909
Church Growth During 1974
*
Children Blessed in Stakes and Missions 72,717
*
Children of Record Baptized in Stakes and Missions 47,234
*
Converts Baptized in Stakes and Missions 69,018
1985 - Statistical report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=81edef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of stakes 1,582
*
Number of districts 352
*
Number of missions 188
*
Number of wards 10,168
*
Number of branches in stakes 2,766
*
Number of branches in missions 2,071
*
Number of sovereign countries with organized wards or branches 95
*
Number of territories, colonies, and possessions with organized wards or branches 20
(These statistics reflect an increase of 75 stakes and 542 wards and branches during 1985.)
Church Membership
*
Total membership at the close of 1985 5,920,000
Church Growth during 1985
*
Increase in children of Record 95,000
*
Children of record baptized 70,000
*
Converts baptized 197,640

1996 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eda6dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church units
*
Stakes 2,296
*
Districts 671
*
Missions 309
*
Wards and branches 23,528
These wards and branches are in 140 nations and in 21 territories and possessions.
Church membership
*
Total membership 9,694,549
*
Eight-year-olds baptized during 1996 81,017
*
Converts baptized during 1996 321,385

2007 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4ff1558fcc599110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
Stakes 2,790
Missions 348
Districts 618
Wards and Branches 27,827
Church Membership
Total Church Membership 13,193,999
Increase in Children of Record 93,698
Converts Baptized 279,218

From Mormon Peggy fletcher stack....

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon254.html

And since you source an ‘anti’ page - I shall do the same because they provide interesting analysis.

“Keeping members a challenge for LDS Church - Mormon myth: The belief that the Church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn’t hold up,”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/30/mormons-losing-members-ov_n_147211.html

http://shawnlandis.suite101.com/mormons-fastest-growing-church-a52196

[sickoflibs]

While there is some truth to this, I dont appreciate Republican POTUS candidates endorsing Obama. That is not their job.

[Williams]

Despite your definitive statements, you don’t know jack shit about what Romney really is.

And before you bother to get offended, neither do I.

But at least I don’t sit here and type that Romney IS a 100% true conservative and that’s what he will be till he dies, etc.

I do observe that he takes conservative positions and it is my opinion he will govern as a conservative if elected.

Absolute certainty I leave to God.

Oh, and he is not a supporter of anything you listed, in present tense. That is a fact. In his heart I have no idea.

[reaganaut]

First of all they aren’t absurd. Many people have seen the truth about Mormonism from these posts, both LDS and not. That is a good thing.

Second, I am not an expert on Romney’s career and a lot of political deals are done behind closed doors, but I do know how Mormonism works, what the oaths are to put the LDS church first, how seriously they are taken by temple Mormons like Romney and read statements by other LDS leaders who admit there is pressure put on them by the LDS church. If you don’t know much about Mormonism then you don’t have any idea how much control they exert over their members.

I’m not sure what you mean by: “Why would service to your church be a negative here?” I’m no longer LDS first of all, second I put my faith in Christ, not a ‘church’ (other than the Church Universal). If you would know what I believe, just ask. However, I am called to speak the truth of Mormonism, the church I attend has nothing to do with that.

Regarding Catholics...I get VERY tired of stupid accusations like “I wonder how much those who fear mormonism really don’t like catholics very much either?” NONE of the anti-mormons on here are against Catholics. We fully accept Catholics as our brothers and sister in Christ. The same is not true of the Mormons. Catholics don’t even accept Mormons as Christians. As far as me, I have no issues with the Catholic church like I do the Mormon church, I have never spoken against the Catholics and am even invited on Catholic Caucus threads because of my professional interests (Medieval Church history). So, don’t pull that straw man on me. Mormons and Catholics are completely different.

It isn’t crazy talk, it is the truth. Mitt will use the office of POTUS to further Mormonism and the Mormon church will use Mitt to slow the hemorrhaging of membership they are going through by saying that Mitt is a fulfillment of a Mormon prophecy.

[reaganaut]

Must we keep using stereotypical “grandpa” cultural references that people under 40 have never even heard of?

- - - -
Apparently, Etch a sketch sales skyrocketed in the past few days.

[adc]

“Consider the other possibility, that a second Obama term will unite Conservatives like never before.”

Respectfully, No. But you were joking, right?

[reaganaut]

Great links, Colo. You know as well as I do that there is a great stake in the LDS repeating the same misinformation and getting their members to believe and repeat it. If Mormons start to research and think for themselves, they leave.

[Colofornian]

f you all think Romney is a liberal, why would you think he wants to rule as a conservative Mormon theocrat? What evidence do you have that, in a long public and private career, Romney has been “less loyal” to the USA than to any entity? When has he put Mormonism above business or politics?

You know, it wouldn't matter what Romney would or wouldn't initiate re: MOrmonism...at the hands of a "prophet," he's but a mere puppet:

Lds Leader	Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title)	Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)
John Taylor	Lds 'Prophet' #3	“The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)
Orson Hyde	President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875)	“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
Heber J. Grant	Lds 'Prophet' #7	"Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)
Harold B. Lee	Lds 'Prophet' #11	...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)
Spencer Kimball	Lds 'Prophet' #12	"President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)
What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father?	Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets')	"Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)
Ezra Taft Benson	Lds 'Prophet' #13	Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Benson (cont'd)	Fundamental #5	5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?)
Benson (cont'd)	Fundamental #9	9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?)
Benson (cont'd)	Fundamental #10	10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?)
B.H. Roberts	LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s!	“[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180
Mitt Romney as POTUS???	Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do?	The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

[reaganaut]

Those number, plus statement from their own leaders that membership is declining.

- - - - —
The LDS are finding it harder and harder to keep up the myth.

One thing I read on a forum said that the rise in leaving the LDS church is proof the LDS church is ‘true’ because it is fulfilling a prophecy of Joseph Smith. OY!

[svcw]

Oh, I am not offended in the slightest.
I do know Romney and he is a liberal at his core.
You beleive he is taking conservative positions now, but what about next year, will he change again?
And before you say no, how do you know that?
He has changed his positions so many times, there is no way to know ever what he will stand for tomorrow or the next day.
We can look at his record, and his statements until a few months ago and they are all liberal.
A man can not govern as a conservative when he states he wants to work with democrats.
There is nothing a conservative has to work with there. (shows his mind set)
A man can not govern as a conservative when he believes that BHO is a guy just in over his head, and not pure destruction.
(shows his mind set)
It is your choice to beleive that Romney has had an epiphany and become a conservative, I simply do not beleive he is capable of doing so based on his own words and his own record and his core.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

That doesn’t even come close to George W. Bush in my book.

Of course it doesn't. Dubya had an overwhelmingly GOP legislature in Texas (where Supreme Court judges are elected anyway), and a GOP Senate as President.

Here's the deal with what Romney faced:

When Mitt Romney was elected as the 70th governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, he entered office with the unenviable predicament of being a Republican governor, in a state with only 12% of its citizens registered as Republicans, and having Democrat majorities in both chambers of the Massachusetts legislature.

In addition, Romney was faced with the reality that every judicial pick he made as governor would go for approval before the Governor’s Council, where Democrats held 8 of 9 seats. It was going to be extremely difficult for Romney to turn the Massachusetts court system in a more conservative direction.

http://gopprimary2012.com/a-look-at-romneys-judicial-philosophy-conservative-reform-in-the-most-liberal-state/

Read the article -- he appointed Republicans in an amount disproporationately high to their representation among voters, appointing 9 Republicans and 14 Democrats in a state where Democrats outnumbered Republicans 3-1.

In addition, Romney’s attempts to turn the Massachusetts courts right can be seen in the appointment of Christopher Moore to chair the Judicial Nominating Commission. Christopher Moore is a conservative who is a member of the Federalist Society, which fights against judicial activism. As chair of the Judicial Nominating Commission, Moore was in an excellent position to ensure he could limit the selection of liberal activist judges who would legislate from the bench.

As a conservative lawyer myself, I can tell you that the left hates the Federalist Society with a passion, and there is no way any Democrat, including Obama, would appoint a member of the Society to head a Judicial Nominations Committee. Of course, the Governor's Council that had to approve nominees was elected, so he had no control over that, and all his nominees had to get through that overwhelmingly Democratic (and hard left) Council.

Just read the article. Romney is not the second coming of Antonin Scalia, and he's not the most conservative guy in this race, but there is no reason to believe he could possibly be worse in terms of judicial appointments than Obama, and every reason to believe he will be an improvement. If he leans towareds preferring members of the Federalist Society, that is about as reliable an indicator as you can get.

[svcw]

My grandkids have Etch a Sketches, we keep them in the car so they have something to play with.
They have little ones that hang from their back packs.
The “I Love Lucy” They probably have seen many of the shows, and talk about the chocolate factory one. Its called reruns.

[greyfoxx39]

The Mormon church is baptizing a quarter million new members a year and bring more that that in as children.

Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining

Brian Carlson 1/31/2012

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years.

At meetings like General Conference, Utahns may be used to seeing members of the LDS Church show up in record numbers. But according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction.

Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving.

"I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member.

So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million.

Elder Jensen told Reuters that's the biggest departure since before the days of Brigham Young.

"If people are leaving it's really a mark that maybe we need to get deeper into our faith," said Ross Booth, LDS Church member.

"When life is going good and we don't have as many challenges we don't turn to God," said Babbi Hill, LDS Church member.

These members said it doesn't worry them about the church.

"I know the church is going to continue to grow and develop," said Booth.

But it is a wake up call to be their brother's keeper.

"It does come down to us as members of the church to do our part," said Jerez.

And LDS leaders are hoping they bring their friends back.

The LDS church declined to comment on the article. But Elder Jensen told Reuters, the church is attempting to reach out to the less-active church members, updating its manuals on sensitive church doctrines, and improve the amount of accurate information about the church on the internet.

But if you'd like to read the article in full, click on the link embedded in this story.

--------------------------------------------------

I have in my own extended family more than forty people who were baptized mormon at one time, and haven't set foot in a mormon church for many years. Some of them have died short of their 110th birthday and are still counted on church rolls. Note that "Elder Jensen told Reuters, the church is attempting to reach out to the less-active church members, update its manuals on sensitive church doctrines"...read "the church is very busy trying to scrub from the internet records that document the true doctrines so that mormon leaders can say, "I don't know that we teach that."

[Scottish Lad]

Who do you think Obama is more loyal to, The USA or Reverend Jeremiah Wright’s ideology?

[Scottish Lad]

Newt is mathematically out of it.

[DaltonNC]

“Some people just hate Santorum.”

We don't need to love Santorum, he loves himself far too much. He is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. My dad was a smart man, he would always say, “beware of the man that thinks he knows it all, that is a stupid man”. Santorum is a spoiled brat, someone needs to take him behind the woodshed. Then put him on the next bus home.
He only cares for himself and will say anything to advance his standing.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

Second, I am not an expert on Romney’s career and a lot of political deals are done behind closed doors, but I do know how Mormonism works, what the oaths are to put the LDS church first, how seriously they are taken by temple Mormons like Romney and read statements by other LDS leaders who admit there is pressure put on them by the LDS church. If you don’t know much about Mormonism then you don’t have any idea how much control they exert over their members.

I hope you'll excuse me if I don't just take this at face value. I can't, because it is contradicted in the political context by objective facts.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is a lefty Democrat (I assume there is no disagreement on that) who also happens to be a Mormon, with a 2010 American Conservative Union score of 8.0%. Senator Orrin Hatch, also a Mormon, had an ACU score of 100%, as did Senator Crapo, also a Mormon.

How is it possible that we see such tremendous variance, including direct opposition on many key issues, between elected Mormon, if they're just all doing what their church tells them to do?

I don't doub that they listen to their church on matters of faith (as do most poeple), but any insinuation that their political stands are directed by the Mormon Church is just buried by objective evidence to the contrary.

[dfwgator]

The choices stink, either way.

[GVnana]

Channeling the inner baby boomer.