True believer: How Mitt Romney... by wearing special Mormon underwear

UK Daily Mail ^ | February 14, 2012 | Graham Smith

[C19fan]

The Mormon faith of presidential candidate Mitt Romney has been one of the hot topics throughout the Republican's campaign. But a recent photo posted on social network website Twitter took speculation about the strength of his religious beliefs to new heights. It shows the GOP nominee wearing an unbuttoned white shirt with his Mormon underwear clearly visible underneath. Also known as a Temple garment, it typically covers the shoulders and extends to the knees, in deference to rules surrounding the Church of the Latter Day Saints' temples.

[svcw]

Perpetrated by a group of lds, good grief Jeff the attack was order by none other than B Young himself.
The was NO extermination order as we understand the word today. The word used at the time frame meaning was “get these people the hell out of here”. JS and his band of thugs were causing havoc no matter where they went. Robbing, cheating, bedding young girls......it is surprising to me that they weren’t all just shot on site.
Listen, trying to find common ground with a group of people who’s sole goal is to kill you, is just stupid.
The reason lds find common ground with islam is because they are so closely aligned as to becoming almost indistinguishable these days.
The only difference is islam wants to kill you and mormonism wants your soul.
So Jeff you still haven’t answered: do you think you will be god of your own planet some day?

[Elsie]

Let’s get off of the religion nonsense and keep our focus on what is important here....

Kinda hard to do; given the title of this thread:

TITLE = True believer: How Mitt Romney... by wearing special Mormon underwear

[Elsie]

I am equating Mormonism with Islam. Period.

You are being obstinate!

When the reins get yanked in another direction; you are supposed to go with the flow!

--MormonDude(I'll give ya SOME slack; since you're new here...)

[Elsie]

Mountain Meadows was an atrcocity perpetrated by a group of LDS people in southern Utah when a group of Missourian pioneers headed for California passed through.

A GROUP?

Poor ol' John D. Lee took one for the team I guess....

---

"I am a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young.

 I do not care who hears it. It is my last word - it is so.

 I believe he is lead­ing the people astray, downward to destruction.

 But I believe in the gospel that was taught in its purity by Joseph Smith, in former days.

 I have my reasons for it.

 

"I studied to make this man's [Brigham Young] will my pleasure for thirty years.

See, now, what I have come to this day!

 

"I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner." (Lee enun­ciated this sentence with marked emphasis.)

 

 

Excerpted from -->  http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leeexecution.html

[AnTiw1]

The Missouri Daily Republican – November 1, 1838

ALARMING STATE OF AFFAIRS.

The following letter, from a highly respectible individual, has been politely furnished us by a friend, for publication. The statements are confirmed by many verbal reports in the city. We have lately conversed with several intelligent individuals from the vicinity of the Mormon disturbance, and, whilst we have found it difficult to arrive with any certainty at the truth concerning many things, we are well assured that the hostility is more deeply seated than has generally been supposed, and we feel assured that bloodshed and devastation only will terminate the struggle, unless the Mormons remove from the country. Every account from that quarter shows an existing state of agitation in the public mind truly alarming. Every stranger is watching with jealousy, and every man compelled to take sides for or against the Mormons. In truth, there appears to be but little division on the part of the citizens, in their opposition. We are told that the two men who laid out the town of De Witt, and, as a matter of speculation, invited the Mormons to buy lots in it, have been given leave to pass through the country three times, after which they are informed that a return there will be dangerous. They have already removed their goods into another county.

So deep and all-pervading is the opposition to the Mormons, and so many respectable men have engaged in the attempt to expel them, that we feel satisfied the public are not truly informed of the objections which exist against the Mormons or the circumstances which render them so obnoxious. We hope shortly to be able to develope something more of the causes of this unhappy state of affairs than have yet come to the knowledge of the public.

On board the Steamer Astoria,
Below Jefferson City, 28th Oct.

Dear Major. — I hasten to communicate intelligence which I have received a few minutes since (from an unquestionable source) at Jefferson City, viz: — Colonel Reese of Richmond, Ray county, had arrived with an express to the Governor, to call out the militia to march in defence of Ray and Richmond. The Mormons had devastated Daviess county, burning the county seat, and most of the houses in the county, and were then marching on Richmond to burn and destroy it. Rencontres had taken place, with loss of lives. Colonel Reese had, but a few hours before we landed, returned, and orders were promptly issued by Governor Boggs for 3000 mounted men to repair to the scene of war. The troops below arw to rendezvous at Fayette, and march immediately.

The Mormons have been for many days hauling in corn and other supplies to their great depot, Far West. They have been reinforced by many hundreds lately from Ohio and the Canadas, — refugees and Mormons. Do not believe that these disturbances are “humbugs.” There are serious and dangerous difficulties now pending. The writer of this has every opportunity to know these facts, as he was an eye witness in Caldwell, having been out with the troops. Mormonism, emancipation and ablitionism must be driven from our State.

We, the exposed frontier men, have enough to contend with to protect our shamefully exposed frontier, without having to combat the serfe of the eastern degraded and fanatical rabble thrown with the “poor Indians,” on our border. Forbearance no longer can be exercised. If the Government will not protect us, we will do it ourselves.

YET MORE. — The Missourian of the 27th, printed at Fayette, gives the following additional information. A company was to be organized in Fayette on the morning of the 27th.

Snowden’s, Oct. 25, 1838.

Col. Jones: Sir, — News has just reached us here that the Mormons have attacked and cut to pieces Capt. Bogard’s company of 50 men, except three or four who have escaped. They say the Mormon force is 300 or 400. Richmond is threatened to-night. If you can spare, I wish you to detail two or three companies of troops, and repair to Richmond with all speed.

Yours in haste,
GEO. WOODWARD,
Aid to Gen. Parks.

---

CARROLTON, Oct. 25, 1838.

Gentlemen: News of an appalling nature has just reached us. Capt. Bogard, who was ordered with his company to guard the frontier of Ray county, was attacked and cut to pieces by immense numbers. They were overpowered by 3 or 400 Mormons, while they were guarding their own families. But five minutes ago, three reports of a cannon were heard in the direction of Richmond. Firing has been heard in various directions, and there is no doubt but that these infatuated villians have attacked Richmond.

The news of their burning and pillage has already reached you. They have indubitably captured the cannon, and taken many prisoners — probably killed many. Daviess county is a scene of desolation. Ray is probably so ere this time; and their next movement will be at this place. It is already threatened.

Be up and doing. Bring all the men you can, and let us check them in their course of destruction and devastation. They are moving on with giant strides to the climax of anarchy, civil war, and desolation. Wolf and Baker will explain all. I have just received orders, by express, from Gen. Brig. Parks, to raise 150 mounted men. Fifty have volunteered, and the remainder I will obtain in a day or two.

Stir the people up in Howard and Chariton. Send all the braves you can with Wolf, and we can meet and check them in their mad career.
Yours in haste,
WM. CLAUDE JONES.

To Congrave Jackson and others.

We have conversed with a gentleman who says that he had held a conversation, in person with Joe Smith, a few days ago, and that Smith stated that his people were prepared to die in defence of what they thought to be their rights, that although the Governor might raise and send against them the power of the State, yet he, and all the men he could bring, would not drive them from their present homes.

We wonder that his Excellency has not called upon the Grays of this City. They are armed and equipped for service, and would be more efficient than any troops which he could muster, being better disciplined and prepared for an emergency than raw troops can be. But of their preparation and discipline the Governor has had ocular demonstration.

Daily Missouri Republican – November 2, 1838

MORMON WAR. — We give a large portion of our paper to-day to the contents of an extra, issued at the request of the Governor, by the Missouri Watchman, containing the evidence on which he has ordered out the troops. We had several reports from that quarter yesterday. The most authentic is, that a skirmish had occurred between the Mormons and citizens near the line of Ray county, in which ten of the citizens were killed and a number taken prisoners. This is but rumor, however, and may or may not be true. There are so many reports it is almost impossible to know what to believe or what to reject

---

From the Missouri Watchman of the 29th inst.

We have been requested by the Governor to publish an extra of our paper, giving to the [public], the intelligence which he, on yesterday, received in relation to our Mormon difficulties. We are also informed that a force of three thousand men have been ordered to be raised and to march immediately to the aid of the suffering inhabitants. The outrages of the Mormons are of a character never before witnessed in a civilized country. They have now placed themselves in an attitude of open defiance to the laws of the land. The contents of the letters published below show, that they have driven the inhabitants of Daviess county from their homes, pillaged and burnt their dwellings, driven off their cattle, and have taken the lives of our people. They will now be dealt with as enemies and traitors to the country.

---

MEETING OF THE CITIZENS OF RAY COUNTY.

At a very numerous Public Meeting, held at the Court House, in Richmond, Ray county on Wednesday, the 24th day of October, 1833, for the purpose of taking into consideration the difficulties with the Mormons: —

The object of the meeting having been explained by Thomas C. Bunch, Esq., the following resolutions were unanimously adopted, after reading the report of Charles R. Morehead, William Thornton, and Jacob Gudgel, Esq’rs., which is hereto attached: To Wit:

Resolved, That the report here made by Charles R. Morehead, William Thornton and Jacob Gudgel, Esq’rs., be transmitted by express to the Governor of this State; together with these resolutions:

Resolved, That this meeting have the most implicit confidence in said report, as well from the known veracity of said gentlemen, as from numerous other facts and circumstances in our knowledge corroborating the same.

Resolved, That in the opinion of this meeting the time has arrived when it is the imperious duty of the Executive, by an armed force to quell, the insurrection put on foot by the Mormons; and that to effect the same, the Civil Authorities are wholly inadequate

Resolved, That Wiley C. Williams and Amos Rees, Esq’rs., be requested to visit the Governor and lay before him the proceedings of this meeting and urge upon him the necessity of ordering out, forthwith, an armed force against the Mormons, sufficient to meet the emergency.

Resolved, That we view with the utmost concern the conduct of the Mormons in the counties of Daviess and Livingston and that immediate action is necessary for the protection of our property and houses from this lawless banditti.

Resolved, That heretofore, as citizens desiring to abide by the laws of the land, we have been disposed to see this people called Mormons dealt with for their offences by the civil authorities; but, that in the opinion of this meeting, from their past and present lawless course a resort to the laws will be more than useless, and wholly insufficient to afford the country that protection to which it is entitled.

Resolved, That we appeal to the Governor of this State to give the people of upper Missouri protection from this fearful body of thieves and robbers.

Resolved, That it would, at this time, be inexpedient to rake any offensive step, but that we should, at present, act on the defensive.

Resolved, That all who have in good faith renounced the Mormon religion, should be protected, either those in this county or in Caldwell, during the present excitement.

Resolved, That some men should now be raised to go to the northern border of this county, and guard it from intrusion by the Mormons, to act [entirely] on the defensive for the present, and that Gen. Parks be requested to raise three companies for that purpose, or that they be raised by volunteers.

REPORT.

The undersigned having, on Monday morning last, learned that the Mormons had burned Millport in Daviess county (in addition to the burning of Stolling’s store in Gallatin, in said county,) and of their having threatened to burn the store in Bancombe Settlement in this county, and feeling an anxiety to know the truth in relation to said reports, left this place, Richmond, on that (Monday) morning and proceeded to Milport — they, however, previously called at Judge Morin’s, who lives about one-fourth of a mile from Millport, who informed them that all they had learned was substantially true, and that much more had been done by the Mormons than the people of this county had been informed of. He went with us to Millport, where we found all the houses in ashes, except a grocery store house belonging to a Mr. Slade, and a house in which Mr. Wilson McKinney had resided. We also found the house of Mr. Robert Peniston, near Millport burned. The horse-mill belonging to him (Peniston), was taken down — the stones, bolting chest, &c., lying out some distance from the shed, and the shed yet standing. Mr. Morin informed us that the burning was done on Saturday night last, that on the next day he saw Mormons there, and saw them taking off beds and other things belonging to Wilson McKinney.

We also saw some furniture which we understood from Mr. Morin, belonged to Mr. McKinney, standing out in the commons, and which seemed to have been rifled of its contents. — Mr. Morin expected, on the day we were there, that the Mormons would be there (at Millport) to move off the remaining property and to burn the balance of the houses. He stated to us that he considered his situation a precarious one. That he had been permitted to stay thus long owing to his having no wagon to move with; but that he expected to get wagons that day and he intended moving into Richmond immediately. He said that the county was entirely deserted by the inhabitants, except himself and a few others, besides the Mormons, and expressed it as his belief that the corn from his house to Diamon would all be gathered and hauled into Diamon by the Mormons, in 48 hours from that time. He also stated to us that he was at Diamon a few days previously, and saw a company of the men (Mormons) come into camp with a drove of cattle amounting to about 100 head, which he supposed to be other citizens’. He also saw a negro man in the possession of a Mormon which he was very certain belonged to William Morgan, a citizen of Daviess county. Mr. Morin looked upon those Mormons who were then at Diamon, (amounting he supposed, to about 600 men,) as a band of robbers and desperadoes. He advised us very strongly to go no further; not to attempt to go to Diamon or Far West; that we would gather nothing by doing so in addition to what we there learned. That the country on the north side of Grand River west of him was certainly deserted, except by the Mormons, and had been for several days; and that the houses were all burned — or to use his own words, that it was a “complete waste.” Mr. Morin also informed us that the Mormons had ordered the other citizens out of the county, and that he too had his orders to leave. He appeared very anxious that we should not be seen at his house by any of the Mormons; and that it should not be known that he had given any information or expressed any thing unfavorable toward them, until he got away. We did not visit Gallatin, but understood from Mr. Morin and others whom we met moving into this county, that all the houses in that place were burned, except a shoe-maker’s shop belonging to Mr. Runville.

C. R. MOREHEAD,
WM. THORNTON,
JACOB GUDGEL.

Richmond, Mo., Wednesday, Oct. 24, 1838.

---

LETTER FROM JUDGE KING.

Richmond, October 14, 1838.

DEAR SIR. — As Mr. Williams will be to see you in reference to our Mormon difficulties, I will be able to say all to you perhaps that can be said. I deem it a duty notwithstanding to give you such information as I have sought and obtained, & is such I assure you may be relied on. Our relations with the Mormons are such that I am perfectly satisfied that the arm of the civil authority is too weak to give peace to the country. Until lately I thought the Mormons were disposed to act on the defensive: but their recent conduct shows that they are the aggressors, and that they intend to take the law into their hands. Of their recent outrages in Daviess, you have probably heard much already. I will give you the general facts, however. On Sunday before they marched to Daviess, Jo Smith made known his views to the people, and declared the time had come when they would avenge their own wrongs, and that all who were not for them, and taken up arms with them, should be considered as against them, that their property should be confiscated, and their lives also forfeited.

With this declaration and much else said by Smith, calculated to excite the people present — the next day was set [apart] to see who was for them and who against them; and under such severe penalties, that there was some, I learn, who did not turn out; and about 3 or 400 men, with Smith at their head, marched to Daviess. This was on Tuesday; the next day was the snow storm, and on Thursday they commenced their ravages upon the citizens, driving them from their homes and taking their property. Between 80 and 100 men went to Gallatin, pillaged houses and the store of Mr. Stollings and the post-office, and then burnt the houses. They carried off the spoils on horseback and in wagons, and now have them, I understand, in a store house, near their camp. Houses have been robbed of their contents, — beds, clothing, furniture, &c. and all deposited, as they term it, “a consecration to the Lord.” At this time, there is not a citizen in Daviess, except Mormons. Many have been driven without warning, others have been allowed a few hours to start. This stock of citizens have been seized upon, killed [up] and salted by hundreds; from 50 to 100 wagons are now employed in hauling in the corn from the surrounding country. They look for a force against them, and are consequently preparing for a seige — building block houses, &c. They have lately organized themselves into a band of what they call “Danites,” and sworn to support their leading men in all they say or do, right or wrong — and further, to put to instant death those who will betray them. There is another band of twelve, called the “Destructives,” whose duty it is to watch the movements of men and of communities, and to avenge themselves for supposed wrongful movements against them, by privately burning houses and property, and even laying in ashes towns, &c.

I find I am running out my letter too much in detail. I do not deem it necessary to give you a minute detail of all the facts of which I am possessed, but I give you the above in order that you may form some idea of the disposition of these people. The Mormons expect to settle the affair at the point of the sword, and I am well warranted in saying to you that the people in this quarter of the state look to you for that protection which they believe you will afford when you have learned the facts. I do not pretend to advise your course, nor make any suggestions other than what I have stated, that it is utterly useless for the civil authorities to pretend to intercede. The country is in great commotion and I can assure you that either with or without authority, something will shortly have to be done.

I hope you will let me hear from you by the return of Mr. Williams, and if you should come up the country shortly, it will give me pleasure to take the trouble to see you.
I am very respectfully,
AUSTIN A KING.

Note: the original Oct. 14, 1838 Austin A. King letter, as well as the Oct. 24th 1838 affidavit of Morehead, Thornton, and Gudgel is on file, along with similar original and microfilmed documents in the Missouri State Archives at Jefferson City. Judge Austin’s mention of the Danites was one of the first ever to appear in the popular press. These two first-hand descriptions of Mormon depredations in Daviess county have not been published in any readily available book or journal. The files of the Missouri Watchman are incomplete and not easily accessible; it was a weekly paper, published at Jefferson City by Hammond & Cronenbold. It was started on Mar. 29, 1838, a few months before the “Mormon War” began in upper Missouri.

---

Lexington, 6 o’clock P. M.
October 25, 1838.

GENTLEMEN:— This letter is sent after you on express by Mr. William Bryant of Ray county. Since you left us this morning, Mr. R. Morehead came here on express for men to assist in repelling a threatened attack upon Richmond tonight. He brought news that the Mormon armed force had attacked Capt Bogart this morning at daylight, and had cut off his whole company of 50 men. Since Mr. Morehead left Richmond, one of the company (Bogart,) had come in and reported that there were ten of his comrades killed, and the remainder were taken prisoners after many of them had been severely wounded. He stated further that Richmond would be sacked and burned by the Mormon Banditti to-night. Nothing can exceed the consternation which this news gave rise to. The women and children are flying from Richmond in every direction. A number of them have repaired to Lexington, amongst whom is Mrs. Rees. We will have sent from this county, since 2 o’clock this evening, about one hundred well-armed and daring men, perhaps the most effective that our county can boast of. They will certainly give them (the Mormons) a warm reception at Richmond, to-night. You will see the necessity of hurrying on to the City of Jefferson and also of imparting correct information to the public as you go along.

My impression is that you had better send one of your number to Howard, Cooper and Boone Counties, in order that volunteers may be getting ready and flocking to the scene of trouble as fast as possible. They must make haste and put a stop to the devastation which is menaced by these infuriated fanatics. And they must go prepared, and with the full determination to exterminate or expel them from the State en masse. Nothing but this can give tranquillity to the public mind and reestablish the supremacy of the law. There must be no further delaying with this question anywhere. The Mormons must leave the State, or we will one and all. And to this complexion it must come at last.

We have great reliance upon your ability, direction and fitness for the task you have undertaken, and have only time to say God speed you.
Yours truly,
E. M. RYLAND.

[Elsie]

We should all try and reach out to any Musilms who honestly and completely reject the fundamental radicals, and who are sworn to and honest in their defense of our Constitution.

Likewise...

We should all try and reach out to any MORMONS, who are called fundamental radicals by headquarters in SLC, and who are sworn to and honest in their practice of the SCRIPTURE found in D&C 132.

They get treated HORRIBLY by spineless weasels who have knuckled under to the POWER of the United States Government.

[Elsie]

He made the statement that lost the race, ‘Senator Obama is a nice family man not to be feared’.

Likewise...

Businessman Romney is a nice MORMON family man not to be feared.

Why would ANYONE care what he has sworn to in a MORMON Temple?

[svcw]

THX 1138

[Graybeard58]

I read all of your reply number 85. That my friend is history, not the mormon revisionist version of it.

[MHGinTN]

What a disgusting yet typical mischaracterization from you, Jef: "You make such a statement and claim that those soldiers faith is the same as, or in bed with, or equated to the fundamental Islamics ..."

I did nothing of the sort, and the fact that you would tell that lie is indicative of your mormonism taqiyya training. What a disgusting person you are showing yourself to be! But then, over the past several years debating mormonism apologists, I have come to realize truth is a sliding scale with Mormons, or at least the ones with whom I've had contact. Perhaps Mitt Romney is a typical Mormon after all.

[meadsjn]

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson --

I respect and admire the writing and thinking of Thomas Jefferson. He seems to have been a man of strong faith, as well as a man of strong reason. Whatever his personal faith, his reasoning delivered to us a higher value on equality and unity, with every person having the right to worship, or not, as one sees fit.

If God, Himself, were here today, which religious group of the many thousands would He claim as His own, if any?

Would He favor the Baptists on the one side of the river, who prefer a quick dip of the victim into the water; or would He side with the Baptists on yonder's side, who hold them under until they bubble and turn blue?

Would He favor the kneelers, with their spotless frocks and candles; or would he favor those hardy souls who feel just as comfortable praying while working, fighting, sitting, standing, or running full blast?

Would he favor the sainted folks on the far hill who properly bite the heads clean off their rooster to paint their alter red; or would he side with the clearly anointed in the valley who properly handle the writhing viper?

To the great sorrow of my old family, I long ago departed from the church of my youth, some memories of which I hold in fondness; and wandered around and about, until now in my older age, I find myself in a congregation of one, praying to a God that, in all honesty, none of us can fully define or comprehend. I defy anyone who tells me that I am on the wrong path, while I respect the rights of others to choose a different one.

Some folks think it necessary to condemn me to Hell for not adhering to their particular brand of babbling, but I talked to God about that, and He said it's alright for me to return the favor, and even fight to the death to defend my freedom, in this and other matters.

I might complain about the music of one group, or the preaching of another, but I defend the absolute and unalienable right of any person to join any religion, or to leave any religion, as they so choose.

I believe, as Jefferson wrote in dozens of different ways, that each person has the right to choose his manner of worship, or none; that the coercion of one belief over the other is divisive and tyrannical; and that the unifying principles of freedom necessary for this nation's endurance preclude the establishment of any particular religious belief, and preclude the prohibition of any particular religious belief, so long as such religion does not infringe on the rights of others.

I will not vote for any individual who cannot correctly articulate that Constitutional principles will and must guide their official conduct and policies. It is commendable if their personal life includes sound spiritual guidelines; but religious tyranny is no better that any other sort, and I will not vote for a tyrant.

As for the muslims, who supported and cheered as their fellows hijacked our planes, destroyed our buildings, and killed many of our people, I just don't see them as a religion. Their history, their ongoing actions, and their stated intentions clearly define them as an ongoing threat to human civilization.

As for Romney, I don't care what religion he claims, or which one claims him. His political and business behavior is best described as crony communism. His entire adult life is one long train of lying, cheating, stealing, destroying; pretending to be this or that, while having no core principles, except to enrich himself and his cronies.

Best wishes for your continued recovery, my friend.

[Jeff Head]

Whose mischaracterizing?

That statement you quote was cleary a statement about what might happen should you make such a statement to those fighting Islam. The full quote of what I said was:

"You make such a statement and claim that those soldiers faith is the same as, or in bed with, or equated to the fundamental Islamics that they are fighting to those soldiers or their companions and you may end up picking yourself up off the floor."

You pulled the part you quoted out of context and made it suit your purposes. It does not say that you "made" that statement, it says what might happen if you do.

And I repeat, those of you making thopse fallacious accusations, or supporting those who do, whenever I see or read that comparison to fundamental Islam, I will refute it, pointing out the abject differences in faith and doctrine, and remind you and those making it that faithful LDS are fighting that enemey and helping defend and protect all of our freedoms while doing so...including members of my opwn family.

MHGinTN, there's simply no further need for further discourse between us. It is clear how you feel about my faith and the dispersions you cast upon it and those of us who follow that faith at every turn. We've made these points over and over, and I have sought and continue to seek God's blessings on you and yours for the sincere faith in Christ that you have and any and all sincere efforts to bring others to Him and His atonement of love and mercy...and I will go about doing the same.

[Jeff Head]

Thank you my friend...I agree completely and pray we as a people can focus on those fundamental principles you describe and pull together as loyal Amricans to fight the tyranny and the principles behind it...and not each other.

It is the plan and desire of the adversary that we fight each other while facing this abject enemy whose desire is to destroy all of our freedom.

I have had my say on this thread...and probably have gotten too emotionally involved. I pray such attacks on the sincere faith of loyal Americans will stop so we can focus on the progressives, leftists, marxists, and others who would deny all of us our rights.

God's best to you and yours. My recovery continues, and I praise God in Heaven and His Son for their will to allow me to linger yet a while on earth for my wife, kids, and grandkids sake...to help them in every way I can and help others too...and to witness and be as much a part of the Rerstoration of our Constitutional Republic as I can.

I've kind of plateaued on the physical recovery side and am able to walk without a cane of any type now, but do not have a lot of stamina, have quite a bit of loss of sensation in my lower legs and feet, am not "super" steady on my feet...I also have been left with pretty significant bowel and bladder disabilities.

But I am able to take care of myself, to witness to others, to still work and provide for my family (though I was told I could have taken full disability if I wanted it...which I do not and have worked very hard to avoid), and to be able to get up and get about while doing so. Each day is a gift, and I thank God in Heaven and my Savior for them...and all who exercised their faith on our behalf.

Thansk for asking and again, I pray and trust all is well with you up north there.

BZ my friend.

[cva66snipe]

Jeff this is not a rant directed at you or your church. But it's time too set some Freepers straight. LDS is not your enemy. LDS is not the church tearing this nation down. It holds one of the highest moral standards of any church in this nation.

WAKE UP AND LEARN THE ENEMY PEOPLE. Anyone in here besides me ever hear of a church called United Church of Christ? Anyone ever heard of Americans for Separation of Church and State? Anyone know the common connection between them?

The Founding Fathers of our nation weren't saints. Nor were a significant number even Christian as they denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ. They believed GOD created the heavens and the earth then abandoned it. Among them was Thomas Jefferson. Go ahead to the web search on the Jefferson Bible. It is the worse butchering of The Holy Bible in existence and Jefferson was the editor. Modern day Unitarians use it. Within that church as well you will find the ultra liberal. They still use The Jefferson but reject his political stands.

The Founding Fathers did believe in GOD not all were Deist nor all Christians. But they did come together in love of this nation too form a government where any person was free too worship GOD as he pleased and conscience allowed. So would Jefferson be rejected today?

Mitt Romney will never get my vote. Not because he is a Mormon. I don't care as that as between him and GOD. I am against Romney based 100% on his record while in office.

Too those using the fact Romney is LDS as a means to attack him you are winning Romney's election for him. Debate his political stands. If he beats his wife, cheats, etc debate that as that is character issues.

I don't agree with the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church but I have voted for Keyes many times. Why? Because of where he stood on important issues and his own character.

Get over The Mormon attacks people. You strain at them and persecute them while real enemies are attacking this nation using The Lord's Name in their church. I have not known one LDS yet whom I would not want as a neighbor. I have some family {cousins} that are LDS as well as Roman Catholics and Baptist.

I believe Freepers like Jeff are Patriots and I know from his history Jeff has taken some very tough stands against tyranny some newbee's in here never knew happened. The man loves his LORD, he loves this nation, and I think some need to grow up and center their energy on the real enemies seeking to destroy this nation.

Right now I would vote for a Deist like Jefferson over anyone running in both parties. I would vote for a member of LDS IF a true conservative one was in the running. But these senseless multiple threads day after day of bashing LDS are childish. Grow up people. When it hits the fan a LDS member may be the one who gives you food or protects your back.

Signed, A Independent Baptist.

[Jeff Head]

God bless you Snipe. Hope all is well with you and yours, God's speed!

Did you know that the new USS America is coming along nicely?

She'll be launched soon and though she is not a CV, she is certainly as close as you can get without being one, and will be an aviation carrier for the Marines. And with the F-35Bs will be a real contender.

Here's a link:

USS AMERICA, LHA-6

I'm building a 1/350 scale model of her (and others) in my spare time...between taking grandkids to movies, teaching them to shoot, working, the chores I can still do, fulfilling my calling (assignments) at church, hekping civically whereever I can, etc., etc.

As always, thank you, from me and mine, for your service to our republic.

BZ

[cva66snipe]

Yea I think the C.O. has been appointed last I heard. The ship looks great so far.

[Colofornian]

Mountain Meadows was an atrcocity perpetrated by a group of LDS people in southern Utah when a group of Missourian
pioneers headed for California passed through. Those involved thought that Missourians involved in earlier events were part of the wagon train...and some may have been.
As such, these misguided souls sought retribution for the Missourian atroicities committed against the LDS years earlier and did so by committing even worse...blatantly killing that group of people (except for the children under eight years old which they adopted out to families in the area, and were later restored to their relatives by the US Army) by luring them into an ambush with Indians by offering to escort them, and then themselves falling upon them along with the Indians.

Jeff, this has to be one of your sickest, most appalling posts ever with gobs of revisionist history built in! I tried to bold-faced all the deceptions in just those 2 graphs alone.

Where do we begin to even address the utter nastiness of your historical and cover-up errors of history here?

(You've done shot your credibility to pieces with this post! NOTHING is believable from your keyboard anymore if this is the kind of "integrity" you reveal about yourself!)

(1) Let's start with where the Fancher-Baker wagon train was from. 'Twas Arkansas Jeff; not Missouri.

Now why is that so important? Because it allowed Jeff to drift off into this 100% irrelevant "retribution" motif where he even accused some of these wagon train members of committing "atrocities." (You're thoroughly disgusting if you believe this utter nonsense, Jeff!)

(2) ...blatantly killing that group of people (except for the children under eight years old which they adopted out to families in the area)...

More disgusting nonsense, Jeff!

"Except" for the children under eight, Jeff?

If the Lord gives you the grace to reach heaven, Jeff, you be sure to tell Mary Lavina Baker, age 7, that the Mormons miscalculated her birthday and therefore she became eligible to be targeted for mass murder.

And, then, Jeff, you be sure to go up to 7-yo twins Magaret and Sara Fancher -- and you tell them the same thing.

Even babies weren't spared the acts of these Mormon terrorists! "...one-year-old Sarah Dunlap, had had her left arm nearly severed by a musket ball. Clinging frantically to her, their dresses soaked in blood, were her sisters Rebecca, six and Louisa, four. They had all seen the slaughter of their seven brothers and sisters, as well as both parents, and Rebecca had pried her baby sister from the arms of their dead mother.” (Sally Denton, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 (Vintage Books, division from Random House) 2003, p. 140)

As it turned out for Sarah Dunlap, she became blinded by an infection (Denton, p. 239).

(3) ...the children under eight years old which they ADOPTED out to families in the area...

And for Jeff Head's next historical revisionist trick, to be consistent, he will describe the relationship between 14 yo Elizabeth Smart (a Salt Lake City Mormon) and Brian David Mitchell as an "adoption"--only without all the bloodshed that occurred @ MMM!

You're incredibly pathetic, Jeff, with this adoption crap!

Have you ever read the book of Esther in the Old Testament, Jeff? Do you understand that the Jewish ceremony of Purim was developed from this targeting of the Jews...and it gives honor to the Biblical concept of righteous indignation?

Well, that's the emotion I'm feeling right now. Righteous indignation over your P.R. crap where if some accurate historians had a huddle about your post here, I'd be rather surprised if the whole bunch of them didn't offer you some toilet paper to wipe away what you're saying here!

(4) And then, finally, you blame the Indians for being heavily involved in the most significant part of the massacre. Jeff, bone up on your history, man! The Indians were there at the start of the multi-day siege -- and most of them had left by the time the sun rose on Sept. 11, 1857.

[Colofornian]

Hauns Mill was a slaughter where 18 men and boys were killed, and 13 more men women and children were wounded by a mob of over 250 in October of 1838. Those responsible were never brought to justice and bragged about the event for years. I am a weak human. If someone came through my new home area, who bragged about the descecrations they had done against my relatives, or family members in Missouri...even years later...who had never been brought to justice...I would be terribly tempted to render that justice. It would not be right...and what they did at Mountain Meadows went far, far beyond that. As I said, it was an atrocity. The events in Missouri were not the “vigilantism” you describe from Illinois. What happened in Missouri is well recorded and well documented. Read Hatley Williams, “Missouri’s 1838 Extermination Order and the Mormons’ Forced Removal to Illinois”. The LDS people were driven out of the state on an extermination order signed by the governor. Their legal property and personal property was taken from them and never compensated. Hauns mill was the worst of the atrocities in terms of massacres.

Drifting, Jeff, again...drifting...repeat after me: "The Fancher-Baker wagon train was from Arkansas, not Missouri. I will not go around attempting to partially justify mass murder with factual errors."

Hauns Mill

(a): If you look @ Setting the record straight on the 'Hawn's' Mill Massacre, you'll see the article explains how the Mormons love to cite Jacob Haun (real name was spelled Jacob Hawn with a "w"), owner of the Hawn's Mill. But Jacob Hawn was never a Mormon...(In that article, a historian discusses why Jacob and Harriet Hawn were never Mormons. "I like many other historians mainly assumed they were Mormons." But among other proofs, Baugh explained that they arrived earlier to Caldwell County before the Mormons, and no family records report that they were Mormons. So the mill that was attacked wasn't even a Mormon mill, after all. [Rewrite the history books]
(b) From the above-linked article: With 17 Mormons killed and 14 Mormons injured, the historian explained that the massacre on October 30, 1838 was the "singular most tragic event in terms of loss of life and injury enacted by an anti-Mormon element against the Latter-day Saints in our entire church's history." Well, I would hope that historians would present history in a more balanced way. What's NOT mentioned in that article is that 12 days before this attack:
•On October 18, 1838, Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Lyman Wight, D. W. Patten at the head of 40 men made a descent on Gallatin, the county seat of Daviess, and they burned the only store and stole their goods. Previous to the 25th of October a great part of the Mormons residing in Caldwell County had returned home with their dividend of plunder.
* Secondly, there's still some debate even among Mormon writers how the word "extermination" was used in that time [see below]. Even if it was used the way we use it today, who started the threats of a "campaign of extermination?" Mormon leader Sydney Rigdon!

Rigdon's July 4, 1838 "inflammatory" sermon was the independence of the church from mobocracy. Rigdon "warned of a war of extermination between Mormons and their enemies if they were further threatened or harassed." (Leland H. Gentry, Church History, p. 343). Lds writer Max Parkin conceded that Rigdon's June 19 and July 4 messages "further incensed the public against expanding LDS influences." (Church History, p. 348).

Certainly, what we almost NEVER hear from contemporary Mormon posters is that apparently the first group to threaten the other with "extermination" in Missouri wasn't Gov. Boggs. 'Twas Lds leader Sidney Rigdon four months prior to that!
* 6 days before this attack: • On October 25, 1838, the Battle of Crooked River: Mormon forces attacked (unknowingly?) the Missouri state militia under the command of Samuel Bogart. This incident became one of the principal points of conflicts in 1838 Missouri. The battle resulted in the death of three militia and the LDS leader, David Patten. One of the militia was taken prisoner by the Mormons. Source: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/are-christians-persecuting-mormons

******

Defining 'extermination' in 1830s America:

What most people miss is the correct definition of "extermination" in the 1835 time period. Webster's Dictionary of 1828 under "exterminate" has: "Literally, to drive from within the limits or borders. Hence, 1. To destroy utterly; to drive away...."
Source: MORMONS - PERSECUTED, PERSECUTOR OR BOTH?

A Mormon author, George W. Givens, likewise pointed this out in his book 500 Little-Known Facts in Mormon History: Latter-day Saints have universally condemned the notorious Haun's Mill Massacre by a mom-militia shortly after Missouri Governor Boggs issued the infamous extermination order...a second look at the definition of the word "exterminate" as it was used in 1838, however, might cause us to take a second look at Governor Boggs as well. An American Dictionary of English Language, published in 1828, defines "exterminate" as "literally, to drive from within the limits or borders." (p. 26) Bonneville Books, 2004

Q What implications does this have?

A Simply put, beware of Mormon Victimology Mythology!

*****

...Their legal property and personal property was taken from them and never compensated. (Jeff Head)

This has been exaggerated by Mormons.

Exhibit A re: Joseph Fielding Smith's exaggeration about Missourians:

"When again they were forced to leave Clay Co, though they went peaceably at the request of the other citizens, they left behind them a vast amount of property for which no remuneration was ever received. Claims against Missouri for the losses were presented to Congress in the sum of $1,381,044.00 and this represented only 491 individuals...in 1839, the amount of their losses was estimated at two million dollars." (1950 book, Essentials in Church History republished 1973, p. 210)

You mean to tell me that many of these poor emigrants averaged possessions worth $2,700 in 1833/1838 dollar values? Really?

We know 11 specific Lds families suffered property losses in Jackson Co. in 1833/early 1834 when they were forced to move (Smith mentions them by name on p. 135 as the ONLY families a committee of 12 Jackson Co. men were forcing to move...but then, suddenly "11" families becomes "about 1200 individuals" on p. 209. Now I don't think even Mormon families back then had over 100 members per family.)

Mormons then moved into Clay County in 1834. We know from eyewitnesses that Mormons told the Clay Co. residents that their stay there wouldn't be permanent and so everything was built as a temporary stopgap (Most Lds were there about three years -- 1834 thru 1836...some began exiting to North Ray Co. in Dec, 1836 as part of a new Mormon-designated Co. -- Caldwell Co.)

What did one Liberty resident present when all this happened say about the Clay Co. years in his elder years? (1886): They [lds] made no arrangement in Clay for a place of [worship], and but few made purchases of homes. My best recollection now is that they had come to own, in all, three or four tracts of cheap land of 40 acres each, and for this, I suppose, they had paid. In addition to this, I have an indistinct recollection that Lyman Wright -- or it may have been some one else -- had contracted for 100 acres, but paid nothing. This, so far as I can now remember, was all there was of their "extensive purchased possessions" at the time they decided to leave for Caldwell county. I had nothing to do with any land they owned in Clay and may underestimate the quantity they had purchased; but the true facts can be ascertained [at] the Recorder's office and I hope some gentlemen will take trouble to examine, and, if I am mistaken, make the correction. But whether the Mormons owned more or less than I have stated matters little, [as] it will be found that they have [sold] and received pay for every foot of land they owned in Clay county. It will also be learned, on proper enquiry and examination, that they never lost property of a dollar's value by the hand of any citizen of Clay. (Wm. T. Wood Liberty Tribune Liberty, Mo., April 9, 1886)

People need to understand that numerous sources exist that the Clay County Missourians treated Mormons very well and were quite neighborly to them.

[bonfire]

You hit the nail, An. People who don’t have the slightest clue nor do they want to. Chiming in because they have “nice” Mormom neighbors, ad nauseum. That’s all they care to know.

I expect that sort of dumbed down Oprah mentality on other sites but not here on FR.

“Refugee” is an excellent word to describe those who have left this cult. Speaks for itself.

How many CHRISTIANS need a support group when walking out the door and leaving their sect behind? How many have to be literally deprogrammed and need help with the depression, sense of loss, family, friends, etc.? How many CHRISTIANS sects are considered a “lifestyle”? How many are ostrasized because they decided to attend the church across the street?

How many CHRISTIANS won’t leave their sect out of FEAR?

With all the info just on FR ALONE, there is no excuse for being uneducated and oblivious.

sigh....

[Elsie]

...we have found it difficult to arrive with any certainty at the truth concerning many things...

Welcome to FR!!

 

 

 The Mormons had devastated Daviess county, burning the county seat, and most of the houses in the county, and were then marching on Richmond to burn and destroy it.

Surely NOT!! They are SUCH good neighbors and citizens!

 

 

 If the Government will not protect us, we will do it ourselves.

Hello ARIZONA!

 

 

News has just reached us here that the Mormons have attacked and cut to pieces Capt. Bogard’s company of 50 men, except three or four who have escaped.

I detect a Wagon Train; off in the distance...