Posted on 02/05/2012 6:59:20 PM PST by mnehring
Edited on 02/05/2012 7:06:55 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
During an appearance on CNN’s Piers Morgan, GOP presidential hopeful Ron Paul was asked whether as a man with daughters and granddaughters, Rep. Paul (R-TX) thinks that abortion is warranted if a woman has been impregnated by a rapist.
“If it’s an honest rape,” Paul replied, “that individual should go immediately to the emergency room, I would give them a shot of estrogen.” He claimed, however, that if a woman is “seven months pregnant” and says that she was raped, “It’s a little bit of a different story.” Source
What would that be? Be specific.
I notice you STILL refuse to answer my other question, if YOU are accused of rape, which of YOUR CHILDREN deserve to die?
Are there OTHER non-capital crimes where you think the criminal's children should be put to death?
“Do you believe in the concept of free will?”
Frankly I believe that is what I have been talking about here for two days, of course I do.
Do you?
“What would that be? Be specific.”
Physical evidence in the vaginal region. Bruises, contusions, cuts, scrapes, tears. Perhaps ligature marks around the wrist or ankle.
Do I need to paint you a more in depth picture than that?
“I notice you STILL refuse to answer my other question, if YOU are accused of rape, which of YOUR CHILDREN deserve to die?”
Your question is a straw-man....a red-herring. Nowhere on this thread or any other have I suggested that there needed to be a suspect either identified or in custody. Do you believe that the criminal must be known for there to have been a crime comitted?
Your final question to me is just frankly, well stupid and I won’t answer it.
SurroundedbyBlue, I am so glad you brought up Rebecca! I am sure you have heard of Juda Myers too. http://www.choices4life.org/ Her mother was attacked by 8 men.
Grunthor, I do hope you check out these links and stories that SurroundbyBlue and I have provided. I once held that position you did. I had already changed my views once I read Rebecca Kiessling’s story but her testimony just sealed that conviction even moreso. Her page has many stories of others who suffered rape or discovered they were born of rape. I pray these accounts soften your heart.
The famous Gospel singer Ethel Waters was born of rape (her mother was around 12 or 13). There’s Fox News correspondant Kelly Wright who told about his own conception from rape. SurroundedbyBlue (or anyone else), do you know of any other people who have shared stories?
The book Victims and Victors tells about women who were raped and got pregnant and their experiences in both having the baby or their experiences of aborting. It dispels many myths about women who become pregnant of rape. http://afterabortion.org/2005/victims-and-victors-speaking-out-about-their-pregnancies-abortions-and-children-resulting-from-sexual-assault/
I remember hearing from one woman that the abortion “was like a second rape” or the other woman who said, “I could forgive the rapist for the rape but couldn’t forgive myself for the abortion”.
One story that touched me was the young teenage girl who had been gangraped in England. She said her mother was the only one who supported giving the baby life. When she saw the baby on the ultrasound, she said an overwhelming feeling of fierce protection for that baby overtook her. Her story is on Rebecca Kiessling’s website.
Lee Ezell’s story tells of how she was raped, chose to give birth and made an adoption plan. The daughter, Julie, found her later and they reunited. Julie’s husband thanked Lee for “choosing life ....for giving me my wife, Julie”. http://leeezellstory.com/
I know someone personally who was born of rape. She’s not famous and she’s like me....a wife and mom who adores her family. I see her husband, children and grandchildren and think of a whole family line gone had she been given the death penalty for just merely committing the “crime” of being conceived.
I once was for “exceptions” at one time in my life but I am a daughter of someone who was adopted. I am so grateful that she was allowed life and I am so grateful for MY life as well as my sister’s, brother’s, nieces’, nephews’ and my children’s lives. I don’t know the circumstances of my mother’s conception. After I no longer believed in this, it hit me that I could have been arguing FOR my own mother’s death by dismemberment.
I’ve read many of the same accounts as you. I, too, have read of women who say that they could recover from the rape & move on, but they cannot recover from the abortion.
I hope these stories open hearts & minds to what they are really doing when they advocate for the rape exception.
One thing that has really struck me is the generational effects of abortion. When a child is terminated in the womb, not only are they denied life, but all of their descendants. How many people have we truly lost after aborting 54 million Americans over the last 38 years??? Mind boggling!
Yes, SBB, I think about that generational loss as well!
no, he’s a cynical physician who has seen it all.
Make “rape” the reason for an abortion, and every woman who wants an abortion will claim rape.
Stranger rape is rape. Rape with threats or violence is rape.
Being given the date rape drug and having intercourse is rape.
Going to a party, flirting with a guy, going home with him and then claiming he raped you is just a mistake.
Many post abortion women go through denial but it is something that NEVER goes away, it is always there. Alcohol, drugs, sex, nothing makes that guilt go away. Some women try suicide, some try to get pregnant again (an atonement baby), some bury themselves in self-destructive relationships or inappropriate ones. Until a woman "comes clean", which is dealing with what she did, why she did it, who else was involved, deals with her anger, her guilt, her self-hatred and accepts the humanity of her child and allows herself to mourn and forgive, she will never heal.
Abortion is a terrible scar on our country. It has destroyed whole families and millions of women AND men are the walking wounded. I pray that abortion, one day, will not have to be outlawed because it will be unthinkable. Regardless of how a woman gets pregnant, that child is part of her and she will always live with the consequences of what she did about it. Pregnancy rarely results from rape, but when it does, abortion is the LAST thing this traumatized woman needs. She needs attention, love, acceptance, emotional support and people with her who will walk with her through the healing process.
Even a woman who is raped and gets pregnant, knows that the child is half hers. I personally have known both women who have gone through with the pregnancy and those who abort after rape. By far, those that go through with the pregnancy and either keep the child or give it up for adoption are the healthier emotionally of the two. Women who abort after rape go through two traumas. One the rape, and two, the abortion. The guilt and loss is the same.
Allowing abortion for exceptions other than the woman's immediate loss of life (i.e.; ectopic pregnancy) sends the message that the child is not to be considered. If the condition of how the pregnancy happened is allowed to determine the legality, then the right to life of the human being is secondary and it CANNNOT be. To do so, as it already has, leads to the slippery slope we are already on and why there are over one million abortions every year, child abuse up 2000%, and euthanasia for the sick and elderly right around the corner. I pray everyone gives this serious thought. ALL life is precious to the one who creates all life and NO life is a mistake.
I understand your point, and my argument used to be "the semen of the rape victim is the continuing assault of the rapist. And that's true. Were that able to be flushed prior to any conception, then I'm absolutely in favor of doing all in our power to get that presence out of the victim before any conception takes place. That is not impossible given the nature of fertilization in the human species.
However, once there is a union between sperm and egg, then we are talking about life. It is a separate life, and it is undeniably human life and not any other kind.
For the sake of protecting humanity from the demons that beset us with eugenics, euthanasia, cloning, and population control, we MUST preserve God's law that life is sacred.
As for the ark carrying that child, the woman, I would keep pushing the envelope of how soon a child can viably be delivered, and I would then attempt to deliver that child as soon as possible. The ark could then decide to adopt the baby out or raise it.
But that is the difference between choosing to dismember a human without trial and mercy. I truly believe that in the long run we do the ark a greater service with that non-deadly outcome than if she has memories of brutality and destruction.
Do I need to paint you a more in depth picture than that?
So, violent rape that is immediately reported and a rape kit done would be considered rape, but women who didn't report the rape or women who were victims of non-violent "date rape" would be deemed to not have been raped?
Your question is a straw-man....a red-herring. Nowhere on this thread or any other have I suggested that there needed to be a suspect either identified or in custody. Do you believe that the criminal must be known for there to have been a crime comitted?
No, but THROUGHOUT this thread you have repeatedly called for the children of criminals to be put to death for non-capital crimes.
Your final question to me is just frankly, well stupid and I won’t answer it.
Why is it stupid? YOU are advocating the execution of rapist's children, why should the children of arsonists, robbers and other criminals be exempt under your plan?
“So, violent rape that is immediately reported and a rape kit done would be considered rape,”
Depending upon what the results of the rape kit said, yes.
“but women who didn’t report the rape or women who were victims of non-violent “date rape” would be deemed to not have been raped?”
No, they just would not be allowed protection under the rape exception in my scenario.
“you have repeatedly called for the children of criminals to be put to death for non-capital crimes.”
Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a bald-faced lie on FR before.
Okay, so on this thread you have opined that not allowing a rape victim to have an abortion is akin to "slavery" and you have stated that a fertilized egg IS NOT a person, but now you only want women who suffered from visibly violent rapes to have a rape exception?
Do you realize how inconsistent you are being?
Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a bald-faced lie on FR before.
Really?
Have you or have you not been advocating for women who have been raped to have abortions?
How is this not advocating putting the children of rapists to death?
You may not like the truth, but it is what it is.
“Have you or have you not been advocating for women who have been raped to have abortions?”
I have not. I have been arguing for rape victims to not be forced to become pregnant. This means that I support them being given a choice under a rape exception to any law banning abortion.
You are either ignorant of the difference or you are a liar.
There is no difference
“There is no difference”
I believe that you believe that.
I think that you misunderstand me. I am not advocation FOR abortion in the case of rape. I am advocating for a rape victim to not be forced into pregnancy.
That is a distinction without a difference.
Rape victims are either pregnant or they aren't, if they ARE pregnant the only way to keep them from having the baby is for the baby to die.
You are either ignorant of the difference or you are a liar.
I'm not ignorant of anything or lying.
If a woman is pregnant, there are ONLY TWO outcomes:
1. The baby is born alive.
2. The baby dies before birth. This can happen on it's own, or the death can be caused intentionally.
You may not be pro-abortion, but every post you have made on this thread is pro-choice on the matter.
"Every abortion clinic should have a sign over the door that says 'Open by permission of the churches in this area.'"-- Francis Schaffer
Do you realize that impregnation from rape occurs at the time of the rape, not later? So there's nothing you can do after the rape to prevent impregnation from the rape which already occurred. If you intend to prevent rapes from resulting in impregnation, you must arrange for that in advance. You must identify either the rapist or the victim in advance, and apply pregnancy preventive measures on them before the rape occurs. Why would you do that, and not try to prevent the rape?
Of course I realize you didn't really mean what you said. I'm sure what you really want is to terminate [abort] the pregnancy once it has begun.
“I think that you misunderstand me. I am not advocation FOR abortion in the case of rape. I am advocating for a rape victim to not be forced into pregnancy.”
Either you lack a basic understanding of biology or you are trying to spin. The conception of a child would occur during the rape. I’m sure what you are trying to say in a round-about sort of way is that you don’t want rape victims forced into carrying a pregnancy.
You are pro-abortion.
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