Posted on 01/11/2012 10:44:12 PM PST by george76
While the Tuskegee airmen were good pilots, by the time they got into the European theater the Luftwaffe was about done. Thus it was easier for them to fight off inexperienced pilots in 109s that were worn out and in bad shape. Not to belittle them, but many white units had great records in this same time period and the white fighter pilots DID NOT run away. In the early parts of the war, before the P51, we didn’t have a fighter that could fly all the way into Germany and back, so bombers had to do without escort. BTW, the bomber crews were white and they sure as he** weren’t running away. Bomber crews, B17 & B24, shot down more German aircraft than all the fighters combined.
“My impression - and history - did not have the white pilots “running away” but dog fighting with the German fighters and getting pulled away from the bombers.”
Fighters that have been pulled away from bombers are no longer attacking the bombers. The bombers liked seeing the fighters nearby - kind of like some Army commanders I’ve worked with. However, once a fight develops, you go as needed to stay alive in the fight. Getting yourself shot down doesn’t help the bombers.
Further, by going after the fighters offensively, the fighters could kill more of the enemy than by limiting themselves to defensive reactions. Over a period of weeks and months, that means fewer enemy fighters and less skilled enemy pilots.
As calex59 points out, later in the war our fighters were better, our tactics were better, and the enemy was reduced in numbers and skill. The Red Tails began their bomber escort role in June 1944. To this day, folks can debate the best way to wage such a war - let the fighters go offensive, or hold them back. As an air liaison officer, I’ve had that discussion with Army commanders at times. Based on what I’ve seen, limiting your aircraft to defensive roles is a pee-poor tactic.
That doesn’t insult the bravery of ANY of the pilots who flew in WW2. I’ve flown combat, but been shot at so rarely and so poorly that any veteran of WW2 would laugh at me if I called it combat time.
The Bomber force that carried the brunt of the air war to the Luftwaffe prior to D-Day was the 8th Air Force. It’s fighter component was the 8th Air Force Fighter Command under MG William Kepner. When Gen Jimmy Doolittle took over command of the 8th Air Force, among his first directives was to order Kepner to destroy German fighters whenever and wherever possible by engaging them in the air and destroying them by attacking their airdromes and transportaion targets so as to secure air soperiority over Europe before the invasion.
Accordingly, Commanders such as Col Hub Zemke of the 56th Fighter group developed tactics such as the Zemke Fan which called for the fighters to break free of the slow bomber formations and aggressively fan out and break up the German fighter Gruppen and Geschwaders as they were forming up. Tactics such as this were wildly successful and led to the destruction of the German Fighter Arm and to the establishment of air superiority over Europe prior to D-Day. It is a hideous reality that the bomber crews were being used as bait to lure the Luftwaffe to battle in a war of attrition that they inevitably lost. The German Landser (infantryman) had a cynical saying; If you see a silver aircraft, it is American. If you see a camoflauge one it is British. If it is invisible it is German.
The 332 Fighter group was assigned to the 15th Air force. their orders were close escort and protection of the heavy bombers and they did a superb job. The myth at the time wass to say that they were incapable of performing such tasks requiring technological skill and courage. We do not need to calumny the fine reputations of the courageous white fighter pilots of great outfits like the 56th and 4th Fighter groups who did so much to achieve victory on the Western front against the truly formidable German foe by implying a new myth that they did not want to protect the bombers so as to seek personal glory in aerial dogfights.
BTW I am a black man who owns 10 books about the 332nd, who regard them as amongst the greatest of my personal hereoes and I take a back seat in my admiration of their superb accomplishments to no one. I think it wrong to imply disparegment of the white pilots who were obeying their orders to engage the enemy in a specific way so as to extol black pilots. Lets not pit these great Americans against one another now. Their was too much of that in 1944-45.
The Bomber force that carried the brunt of the air war to the Luftwaffe prior to D-Day was the 8th Air Force. It’s fighter component was the 8th Air Force Fighter Command under MG William Kepner. When Gen Jimmy Doolittle took over command of the 8th Air Force, among his first directives was to order Kepner to destroy German fighters whenever and wherever possible by engaging them in the air and destroying them by attacking their airdromes and transportaion targets so as to secure air soperiority over Europe before the invasion.
Accordingly, Commanders such as Col Hub Zemke of the 56th Fighter group developed tactics such as the Zemke Fan which called for the fighters to break free of the slow bomber formations and aggressively fan out and break up the German fighter Gruppen and Geschwaders as they were forming up. Tactics such as this were wildly successful and led to the destruction of the German Fighter Arm and to the establishment of air superiority over Europe prior to D-Day. It is a hideous reality that the bomber crews were being used as bait to lure the Luftwaffe to battle in a war of attrition that they inevitably lost. The German Landser (infantryman) had a cynical saying; If you see a silver aircraft, it is American. If you see a camoflauge one it is British. If it is invisible it is German.
The 332 Fighter group was assigned to the 15th Air force. their orders were close escort and protection of the heavy bombers and they did a superb job. The myth at the time wass to say that they were incapable of performing such tasks requiring technological skill and courage. We do not need to calumny the fine reputations of the courageous white fighter pilots of great outfits like the 56th and 4th Fighter groups who did so much to achieve victory on the Western front against the truly formidable German foe by implying a new myth that they did not want to protect the bombers so as to seek personal glory in aerial dogfights.
BTW I am a black man who owns 10 books about the 332nd, who regard them as amongst the greatest of my personal hereoes and I take a back seat in my admiration of their superb accomplishments to no one. I think it wrong to imply disparegment of the white pilots who were obeying their orders to engage the enemy in a specific way so as to extol black pilots. Lets not pit these great Americans against one another now. Their was too much of that in 1944-45.
Pardon the doube post. The best single book that I have read on the air war over Europe, Masters of the Air by Donald L. Miller details this superbly. Also check out Tail End Charlies and the Mighty 8th by Gerald Astor.
Pardon the doube post. The best single book that I have read on the air war over Europe, Masters of the Air by Donald L. Miller details this superbly. Also check out Tail End Charlies and the Mighty 8th by Gerald Astor.
“Lets not pit these great Americans against one another now. Their was too much of that in 1944-45.”
Worth repeating. What folks did world wide and in every combat arm was amazing. The record of the 332nd needs no embellishment.
I love to see modernized WW2 movies but not when they cannot accurately keep it in its proper historical accuracy.
I can understand when a war film was made DURING the war years and all the exaggerations in armament, speed and even the name.
Which kinda made me wonder when Pearl Harbor came out, was it slanted because technically we were at war? The Doolittle ending was not correct historically.
I fear that this movie is well intended but may create a generation of half truths, our children will believe CGI instead of real facts.
Like Obama in the Whitehouse.
Ping to 10
Song from Team America:
I need you like Ben Affleck needs acting school,
He was terrible in that film.
I need you like Cuba Gooding needed a bigger part,
He's way better then Ben Affleck.
And now all I can think about is your smile,
And that s---ty movie too,
Pearl Harbor sucked and I miss you
I will be the first to honor the Tuskegee Airmen who served as certified heroes for their service to our nation, especially due to the circumstances of the times. They really got the crappy end of the stick and yet they still did their duty in spite of it. I an white and truly admire that but the false claim of never losing a bomber does not do them any credit no matter whatever their color.
In the 8th Air Force, the fighter tactics was to destroy German fighters whenever and wherever possible even if it cause the fighters to sometimes leave the bomber formations in pursuit of that goal. It was one of the reasons the Luftwaffe got shot out of the sky and strafed on the ground in their airdromes thus losing any semblance of air superiority the last year of the war. And except for once in a blue moon local sorties, German aircraft were more or less nonexistent to German troops on the ground.
BTW I respect and admire the military exploits of both Medal of Honor winner Bob Kerrey in Vietnam and George McGovern who flew 35 mission over Germany in a B-24 Liberator pilot in World War Two, but as for their politics since their military service, I have no respect at all for their liberal views.
Red Tails is a horrible movie and deserves an early nomination for worst movie of the year. I could not take the film seriously. It was a joke. After five minutes into the film, I knew it was going to be a long two hour movie.
Lucas is trying to find an excuse for his bomb.
There was an episode of the History Channel's "Dogfights" where they interviewed a Mustang driver that took on two Me-262s. He did essentially just that...a back flip...
White House had a private screening last night:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/01/ap-tuskegee-airmen-film-white-house-screens-011312/
with Lucas, et al
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