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This is being developed as a way to story energy for when wind turbines are not active.
1 posted on 09/19/2011 12:12:29 PM PDT by Brookhaven
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To: Brookhaven
Coal-fueled power plants work most efficiently running flat-out. This is a way to store the energy they produce during off-peak hours and distributing it during peak hours.

Any storage mechanism is going to lose energy in the process.

2 posted on 09/19/2011 12:17:47 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Palin is coming, and the Tea Party is coming with her.)
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To: Brookhaven

This was new in about 1890.


3 posted on 09/19/2011 12:18:36 PM PDT by loungitude (The truth hurts.)
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To: Brookhaven

why don’t they just use a gas generator? It doesn’t use as much power and can be switched on when ever needed.


4 posted on 09/19/2011 12:19:13 PM PDT by dila813
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To: Brookhaven

Sounds like it’s based on the same principles as Bronco Bomber’s stimulus plan.


5 posted on 09/19/2011 12:20:07 PM PDT by tx_eggman (Liberalism is only possible in that moment when a man chooses Barabas over Christ.)
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To: Brookhaven

Yeah it sounds stupid, but it is not as stupid as it sounds. This may just be working solution to a problem.

Your local water tower works the same way.

They pump it full at night when there is little water use, then allow it to flow during the day.

Otherwise there might be periods of low water flow in high demand time periods during the day.

Otherwise they would have to have pumps twice as large to handle peak flow in the daytime, which would sit idle at night


6 posted on 09/19/2011 12:20:48 PM PDT by Mr. K (Palin/Bachman 2012- unbeatable ticket~!!!)
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To: Brookhaven

Pumped storage has been around for a long time.

It’s a way of leveling out demand. It isn’t efficient to run power plants up and down. they like to run at a constant speed. When the demand is light, some of the power is shunted off to run turbine pumps that pump water uphill behind a dam. When demand is high, the water is let down through the penstocks and the turbine motors become generators (or more precisely, alternators, I guess). and that electrical power is fed into the grid.

Thermodynamically, yes, it does use more power than it produces (there is no perpetual motion machine). But, overall, it is useful to level out loads without keeping a lot of ‘spinning reserve’. A lot of peak demand generation has moved to gas turbine plants that can be brought up quickly. Steam plants need days to get up from a cold start.


7 posted on 09/19/2011 12:21:29 PM PDT by SargeK
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To: Brookhaven
This is being developed as a way to story energy for when wind turbines are not active.

They use a coal fired plant to pump the water when the wind stops.

8 posted on 09/19/2011 12:21:41 PM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: Brookhaven

There are several of these facilities across the country and have been for years. They are meant to store up power while demand is low (cheaper).. and pump out power when demand is high (expensive).

Buy low sell high type thing. This isn’t green crap.


9 posted on 09/19/2011 12:22:13 PM PDT by rokkitapps ( Hearings on healthcare waivers NOW! (If you agree make this your tagline))
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To: Brookhaven
The giant San Luis Reservoir on CA Highway 152 (Pacheco Pass Road) is used for the same thing. Pump water up during the night when electricity is cheaper, and let it flow back and generate power during the day. I learned that at the Visitor Center when finally stopping there after decades of driving between the Bay Area and LA on I-5.
11 posted on 09/19/2011 12:23:06 PM PDT by norcal joe
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To: Brookhaven

So why don’t they just divert the water further upstream via an aqueduct to the reservoir instead of pumping?


12 posted on 09/19/2011 12:24:16 PM PDT by Woodman
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To: Brookhaven
Pumped-Storage plants have been around for a LONG time. They were intended to generate power in the on-peak (daytime/high load) hours, and the water was pumped back into the reservoirs in off-peak (nites and weekends) periods. With the nuclear power that was being built in the 70's and 80's, the nuclear plants would run 100% output round the clock, as fuel for them is relatively cheap and clean, but the fixed costs (cost to build) are phenomenal.

Both the pumped storage and the nuclear plants suffered the same fate.

Environmental wacko's forced nuclear plants to multiply their costs by delays, protesters, siting, needless environmental lawsuits, etc., which ultimately didn't stop their construction at the time, but prevents NEW plants from being built, to appease the greenies.

The same situation occurred when pumped storage was tried to be built, where greenies, tree-huggers, and environmentalists delayed them to the point of them becoming un-economic to build and were abandoned as a source of power.

In the end, some of the best generation in the East are the Bath County Hydro plant of Allegheny Power Company, and the Seneca Plant in PA. Too bad the plants are gonna be antiques, as siting new plants today is nearly impossible, and energy is so much needed. We are stuck with the buddy system of "green power", where if you have a buddy in Congress, you get taxpayer money for green power albatrosses, which are totally insufficient to meet today's energy needs and cannot compete economically on their own. Think "Solyndra", and you see what's goin' on.

Follow the money (and the votes).

13 posted on 09/19/2011 12:25:17 PM PDT by traditional1 ("Don't gotsta worry 'bout no mo'gage, don't gotsta worry 'bout no gas; Obama gonna take care o' me!)
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To: Brookhaven

Any energy storage system must consume some energy.

They idea that makes it still work is to use cheaper off-peak power output to release during the more expensive peak time period.


15 posted on 09/19/2011 12:27:38 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Brookhaven
Kotala said the fact the facility would offer no net gain to power production and "the only thing that would be generated is money for the owners" was another reason the conservation groups were against it.

This statement from this environut clearly demonstrates the true motives behind environmental groups. They are not near as concerned with conservation as they are preventing power companies from gaining a profit.

17 posted on 09/19/2011 12:30:15 PM PDT by RobertClark (Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind.)
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To: Brookhaven
This sort of thing was initially sold as peak load generation, storing power by moving water during off-peak times. Here is an example: (note the dates of operation) Back Creek, Virginia
22 posted on 09/19/2011 12:35:39 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Brookhaven
The other thing I remember about this project is that it would be normally unmanned; it would remotely operated.

A big advantage money saver. A peaking plant must be manned 24/7.

23 posted on 09/19/2011 12:37:38 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: Brookhaven

***The station also uses more electricity than it generates, ****

These have been around for quite a while. The way it works is when you have a “peak” demand, the cost of electricity goes way up. The gates are opened and the water flows through the turbines to produce this electricity to take advantage of this high cost time.

At night, when the price of electricity falls, the pumps are turned on allowing the water to be pumped back to the upper pond at a lower cost. The electricity to operate these pumps comes from other power plant sources.

The turbines produce high cost electricity during the day.

The pumps use MORE low cost electricity to pump the water back to the upper pond at night.


26 posted on 09/19/2011 12:39:42 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: Brookhaven
Even old farmers used that trick back before public utilities made us energy junkies.

Funny how Al Gore never mentions that fact.

31 posted on 09/19/2011 12:52:18 PM PDT by Aevery_Freeman (How will the Rats keep power? They cheat!)
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To: Brookhaven
combined power generation
33 posted on 09/19/2011 1:09:30 PM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: Brookhaven

IIRC it is three KW to pump up, and two KW generation on the way down. Therefore the cost per KW nightime had to be 2/3 or less the cost per KW daytime.

The math worked in 1975, not sure now with fairly efficient gas fired combined cycle generation widely installed.


35 posted on 09/19/2011 1:11:56 PM PDT by cicero2k
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To: Brookhaven
The Salt River Project which serves the Phoenix area utilizes pumped storage units at Horse Mesa and Mormon Flat Dams. Mormon flat Dam contains Canyon Lake, which I introduced my grandsons to yesterday. You can see it in the background:


38 posted on 09/19/2011 1:16:19 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (I never win at Scrable.)
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