I think there was fire.
Posted on 09/19/2011 7:18:13 AM PDT by PilotDave
The NTSB has recovered 'components' which may be part of the P-51's horizontal stab and elevator... possibly even the elevator trim tab, which is a specified point of inquiry (as noted in previous ANN reports).
The NTSB has received a significant amount of photographic and video evidence -- some of which show the process whereby the elevator trim tab separated from the horizontal stabilizer.
There is no evidence of the much-reported 'Mayday' call.
We are hearing a number of calls for additional regulation and FAA supervision... despite the fact that this is the first time in nearly 60 years that a spectator at an American aviation event has been killed. A quick perusal of a number of road racing events shows dozens of people/spectators killed as a result of their attendance at such exciting activities (and just in the last few years!)... there are spectator tragedies on record, as well, involving boat races, motorcycle races, BICYCLE races, sled races, ski races, horse races, you name it.
(Excerpt) Read more at aero-news.net ...
I think there was fire.
... didn’t it?
From the Wikipedia:
At 10:03:11, near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, the plane crashed into a reclaimed coal strip mine in Stonycreek Township in Somerset County.[59] The National Transportation Safety Board reported that the flight impacted at 563 miles per hour (906 km/h) at a 40-degree nose-down, inverted attitude.[19] The impact left a crater eight to ten feet deep (c. 3 m), and 30 to 50 feet wide (c. 12 m).[60] All 44 people on board died.[61] Many media reports and eyewitness accounts cited the time of the crash at 10:06 or 10:10,[62][63] as did an analysis of seismographic data in the area,[64] but which the 9/11 Commission report states was not definitive.[65] Other media venues and the 9/11 Commission reported the time of impact as 10:03,[66][67] based on when the flight recorders stopped, analysis of radar data, infrared satellite data, and air traffic control transmissions.[23]Kelly Leverknight was watching news of the attacks when she heard the plane. "I heard the plane going over and I went out the front door and I saw the plane going down. It was headed toward the school, which panicked me, because all three of my kids were there. Then you heard the explosion and felt the blast and saw the fire and smoke."[68] Another witness, Eric Peterson, looked up when he heard the plane, "It was low enough, I thought you could probably count the rivets. You could see more of the roof of the plane than you could the belly. It was on its side. There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."[69] Val McClatchey had been watching footage of the attacks when she heard the plane. She saw it briefly, then heard the impact. The crash knocked out the electricity and phones. McClatchey grabbed her camera and took the only known picture of the smoke cloud from the explosion.[70][71] Ten years after 9/11, a video of the rising smoke cloud filmed by Dave Berkebile (deceased by 2011) from his yard located eight miles away from the crash site was published on YouTube.[72][73]
Very interesting. Probably because there were few witnesses.
*This pic I just found and shows some buckling of fuselage. Classic damage caused by overstress.*
Looks more like oil-canning. A post flight inspection would tell the difference.
He did not answer why the plane seemed to try and pull out of the dive at the last minute.
Perhaps because with a failure of the high-speed trim tabs (or whatever) the plane is naturally inclined to “pull up.”
PS, I live here, was driving by within 5-10 miles within the hour after the crash, and can tell you that trying to be a reliable weather analyst from one direction in the sky is a fool’s mission.
I vividly recall that we saw the northern end of the “Sierra Wave” set up as we were driving to friends in Sparks. That’s a pattern that sail plane soarers watch for (one of the top three locations in the world) and I see it regularly.
It’s no relation to the high-speed low altitude crash, but reminds me that the Sierra skies look VERY different at different angles and directions at a given moment.
Don’t trust anyone who doesn’t live here to opine that “the clouds look wrong”.
You think that kind of crap wins opinions?
You may as well drive a Fartley Davidsons at below limit on the interstate with pals blocking all lanes, and then drive through neighborhoods at 3AM waking everyone up with your non-complaint pipes.
Arrogance is the enemy of your cause.
Where's the pilot? Also, the tail wheel is down.
From the image, he's likely saying a really quick prayer, force pushing his head pushed into the back of the seat, knowing his life is ending in the next 2 seconds.
Are you speaking of the Oswego Il site
**He did not answer why the plane seemed to try and pull out of the dive at the last minute.**
For a given flight control setting, the plane will try to settle on a certain speed. Slow it down (as in a climb) and turn loose the stick, the plane will naturally nose over to try to return to the airspeed the elevator is trimmed for.
Also, push the nose down, the plane will gain speed. At some point, the horizontal stabilizer will generate enough force (due to its position and trim) to raise the nose and try to return to its normal speed for that configuration.
Say you are straight and level at cruise, pull back on the stick to pitch the nose up 10 degrees, then just let go. The nose will fall and you will be above your cruise speed, at which point the nose will come back up (above the horizon) and you will slow below your cruise speed. This will continue, and hopefully, the departures from normal speed will be less with each oscillation.
I think we saw the plane’s airspeed go way above what the tail was set for, and normal aerodynamic forces were causing the nose to start to pitch up without any pilot input.
Less control, and the trim tab comes off, its trouble with a capital T. It was a split second uncontrollable condition. Add in the speed of 400 plus MPH and disaster.
I heard that trying to pull out would have put him deeper in the crowd on the crash trajectory. They will probably have a computer model of the whole event soon.
Less control, and the trim tab comes off, its trouble with a capital T. It was a split second uncontrollable condition. Add in the speed of 400 plus MPH and disaster.
I heard that trying to pull out would have put him deeper in the crowd on the crash trajectory. They will probably have a computer model of the whole event soon.
Note the “vapor” behind the the wing root. It would make me think the angle of attack was very high at that time.
GG had a boiloff system that replacesd the belly scoop radiator
You’re seeing steam boiling off through the exit hole.
If parents decide they should be there that is fine by me.
I also do not have a problem with smokers or people that like to drive motorcycles without helmets.
If we are a free people we should be free to make stupid decisions as well as wise ones, however, we should also be ready to accept the consequences for those decisions.
It is a P-51, but it was heavily modified for racing.
They cut about 10 feet off the wings, they removed the radiator scoop under the fuselage, the bubble canopy was replaced with a very low drag canopy and the cooling system was replaced with a boil-off system like the system used in the Space Shuttle.
I have access to the full AP wire feed and pulled up all the images from AP and it does appear that the pilot must have slumped down in the seat so his head isn’t visible. There are only three or four images available, and a couple are of such low quality that you can’t determine much about anything.
After looking at the images, my guess is that the pilot lost control after a very high G event that forced him out of a seated position. He may have been unconscious.
Leeward’s website makes it sound like he wasn’t a big fan of helmets or other safety gear. I would hate to think this happened because he didn’t properly secure his harness.
I read most of this thread and I agree — it looks like Leeward passed out on an unexpected high-g pullup and the airplane was out of control from that point onward.
I wouldn’t have thought the loss of a trim tab would cause a high-g pullup but the testimony of the other ‘unlimited’ pilot (Bob Hannah, 1998 Reno) changed my mind. Also there is the evidence of the tailwheel deployed, and the absence of the pilot’s profile in the canopy in one shot, and appearing to be slumped forward in another shot.
This talk of 20 g’s on the airplane is ridiculous. That would exceed the ultimate stress of the airplane, without a doubt, and the airplane would have broken apart.
It doesn’t take all that many g’s to black out a pilot, if the pilot can’t anticipate the onset. Normally when you pull g’s you are the one making the control inputs, so you know exactly when to tense your legs and abdomen, among other things. But if it happens suddenly you can suffer g-loc (g-induced loss of conscousness) very quickly — so quickly you won’t remember it happening (assuming you survive). A sudden 7 g’s or more could induce g-loc. This event was probably in the neighborhood of 7-9 g’s, judging from Bob Hannah’s recount of a similar experience.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2010-full.html#205390
“A sudden 7 g’s or more could induce g-loc.”
I would also point you to post 103 in this thread. If that picture is an actual race condition, a lot of what the pilot may have gone through is obvious. He is leaned forward, looking down and to the left. There is no apparent padding on the bulkhead behind his head. It he was hit with a sudden and unplanned even 4 or 5 g pull up, the effect on him would be much greater.
This is one of the reasons that the seat belts on modern airline aircraft have to be stressed for 16g while the attachment of the seat is only stressed to 9g. If a person’s body is allowed (by slack in the restraint system) to accelerate after the force is applied, the resulting impact to the person will be greater than the force applied to the aircraft (hence 16g’s for the belt, 9 g’s for the seat). I hope the photo in 103 was just some publicity shot and not the actual final configuration he raced in. He is in no posture suitable to absorb any kind of sudden g load in that photo.
http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KNVRENO9&month=9&day=16&year=2011
You can see from the tabular data when the clouds burned off and the temp started to rise. Some clouds came back in the early afternoon, but I do not think it was a heavy as in the picture. I still maintain the one picture is not time correct due to the heavy cloud cover.
Sorry, but your vague weather analysis doesn’t debunk a photo that has 99 reasons to trust it, and zero other reasons not to.
You’re in kooky conspiracy theory, if you’re talking about the photo I assume you are.
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