Police Say Nine Killed in Deadly Crash at Reno Air Show, as Probe Focuses on Wayward Part

Foxnews ^ | 9/17/2011 | AP

[Ron C.]

RENO, Nev. – The death toll in the crash of a World War II-era plane during a Reno air race rose to nine people Saturday as investigators combed through wreckage and scoured amateur video clips to determine why the aircraft suddenly spiraled out of control and plummeted to the ground near hundreds of spectators.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/17/federal-investigators-looking-into-what-caused-deadly-crash-at-air-show/#ixzz1YGNn9wu6

[Robe]

Read Chuck Yeagars book , he did post war testing in the P-51.
During the war polits were losing the aircraft in dives for some (then ) unknown reason.
Chuck found himself in a dive which the elevators had no effect. The faster he went the more the aircraft pitched forward,thus going faster and trying to tuck under.
He deployed flap and then the landing gear , which slowed him down enough to gain control of the Aircraft. (He lost the gear doors and stressed one main landing gear strut rearwards a couple of inches)
IT was determined that as the aircraft went faster the center of gravity (lift) moved back along the wing (airfoil) causing a pitch down.
In this case flying the aircraft in the speed range, the trim tabs are more effective that the elevator itself. If he lost the trim tab, he lost control of the entire aircraft

[DesertRhino]

You know, one thing that we should all remember. This seems shocking and unbelievably violent. This was fun,,a sport more expensive than Polo.
But when our guys flew them in WWII, incidents like this happened every single day. We lost FAR more fliers in WWII to accidents than to enemy action.

And often,, people on the ground were killed too. We see the video of the fighters blazing away at each other over Europe. More times than can be counted, 109s, Thunderbolts, 190s, Mustangs, etc SLAMMED onto a city street,,wildly out of control. As we mourn this pilot and those nice people who just went out for a fun day, we should stop and remember, what we saw at the airshow was a small taste of the violent lives those planes lived. And what those men went through.
When you see the close up of the aftermath there in the box seats, with the severed limbs, and fragmented bodies,,,. See it as an inside look at a flight deck a minute after a Kamakaze hit.

We should chase the Glen Miller tunes out of our heads,
and remember the violent truth about those machines. And then,,, next September, play the music and go race them again.

[Kirkwood]

I noticed in the high resolution images prior to impact that the tail was not retracted and that you could not see the pilot’s head in the cockpit. The pilot’s head was easily seen in the images prior to the race.

[DesertRhino]

I wondered why his head wasn’t visible too. No idea if it should have been visible in that racing style cockpit. And why was the tailwheel down? Is there any chance that the force of the violent maneuver could have ripped it out of the retracted position?

[Kirkwood]

I would assume the seat harness would have kept the pilot upright in the seat, but what if the entire seat frame broke loose and slid backwards in the cockpit? I know nothing about the design of the cockpit. Just speculating. Is the seat on rails and is it pushed back at the start of the race? The pilot is clearly forward in the cockpit before the race.

[Kirkwood]

Compare cockpit in these two photos.

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/09/17/reno-air-races-crash/#/9

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/09/17/reno-air-races-crash/#/21

[DesertRhino]

Wow,,,interesting to compare.

[jimmyray]

Yes, the pilots absence is odd. Perhaps he had a heart attack or a stoke?

visible in cockpit at taxi:

not visible prior to crash:

[jimmyray]

Look at this one - Pilot appears to be slumped forward? Also, the trim tab appears completely detached at this point as well.

[Mensius]

And why was the tailwheel down?

Same question here... Could the pilot engage the rear landing gear separately, perhaps to induce drag and thus compensating for instability in the elevator? Curious...

[Kirkwood]

Don’t these pilots use shoulder harnesses? If so, he couldn’t simply slump forward. That’s why I’m wondering if the seat or seatback broke loose. Also the pilot called mayday over the radio, which seems to suggest an equipment malfunction instead of a major cardiac event or a stroke.

[central_va]

Elevator trim is set for airspeed. Rudder trim, if it has rudder trim, can control yawl. There isn’t any aeleron (roll) trim.

[jimmyray]

I thought I had heard he called mayday, but have not read it in any of the account... or I missed it, which is likely. Was any other verbage provided by the Pilot at the mayday call?

[Kirkwood]

I don’t know anymore about the mayday call. That picture you posted was one I hadn’t seen. His head is forward, but I’m not sure why that should be if he was in a harness. Unless he undid the harness.

[Seaplaner]

If he lost his trim (If it’s even what i am thinking) Wouldn’t and expert such as the pilot just compensate for it?

My impression is that a P-51 at higher speeds needs up elevator tab (for down elevator to keep the nose from climbing) to compensate for the higher lift from the wings.

When the elevator trim separates at racing speed, there can be an immediate and abrupt, multi-g climb that can g-loc (grey-out) any pilot. The photos suggest to this non-NTSB expert (although I am a pilot) that the instant high-g climb and resultant loss of consciousness of the pilot is a possibility that invites thorough investigation.

One hopes that the overall effect of the tragedy will be to engineer safer and redundant airplane elevator trim tabs, and not to eliminate or otherwise ruin this usually great annual event.

[eartrumpet]

“From what i have read from experts the pilot actually performed a manuver during the crash to save the grandstand and hundreds of lives.”

I believe that is all feel-good talk to make the pilot’s relatives feel better. One second he has a mechanical failure severe enough to make him violently pitch up completely out of control, and spin and loop, and a half second later we are to believe that he once again has control and is steering the plane for the best possible spot to crash, given his choices. I doubt it.

Chuck Yeager mentioned this very thing in his book. The stories in newspapers often mention how the heroic pilot steers his plane away from the crowded parking lot or school bus stop and crashes in a field. Yeager said a pilot about to crash would attempt A and if that didn’t work he would attempt B and if that didn’t work he would attem CRASH.

[Eye of Unk]

These are racing planes, I have seen drivers in NASCAR do some weird weight trimming literally in grams to get an edge.

I am not so much a pilot but I tried my hand at getting my private pilots in Anchorage years ago.

I would say its possible that what you are describing his exactly what happened. And on this particular airframe the loss of this control surface will indeed be catastrophic.

[Niteflyr]

I remember reading a story about Bob "Hurricane" ("Buckwheat to his close friends) Hannah...ex motocross star turned Reno unlimited racer said he almost got killed when he "lost" the elevator trim tab on his P-51 "Voodoo"....

[org.whodat]

74 year old driver may have had a 74 year old mechanic.

[bootless]

I wish there was a self-delete function on FR sometimes. This pilot was no “driver.” If you had any idea of the care and expertise lavished on these planes, you may reconsider your comments.