Posted on 08/30/2011 7:12:18 AM PDT by Red Badger
Isn’t this the gas that was supposed to replace Freon, the original refrigerant that was supposedly causing the hole in the ozone layer? Unintended consequences? Or am I wrong about this gas? Anyone?
I can understand a new condenser because a different refrigerant will have different pressures and gas or liquid volumes. But why would you need a new duct? I ask because I'm looking to replace my AC (and maybe my furnace if I get a good deal). The AC is (as one repairman described it) older than dirt, so I'm having both the inside and outside sections, along with the tubing between replaced. All of that is easy to replace. However my ducts are nearly impossible to replace without tearing apart half my house. Unless the AC won't work at all with the old ducts I won't be touching them.
R-22 was given a longer time frame to be ‘phased out’ because it was used in home and business A/C units.........
likely just the ducts by the furnace. This still is extra money.
The modern units though do use a house return, so if your unit is really old you need to install this duct in order to get the boost in efficiency and energy savings.
In Oregon, no installer will provide these old units, you have to buy them yourself then pay them to install them. Most of the big guys won’t install someone else’s products.
Ok, thanks.
No it doesn’t, it has to do with the changes in the design of the units.
Also your furnace may not be compatible either. So add some more money.
I think Dupont has the digs on the newer R410a (replacement for R-22). Units are still being sold with R22 (old inventory) and this is stalling their boondoggle profits. In other words, folks buying R22 Units will have to either stock up on R22 or purchase newer units.
The commercial industry is already complying with R410a units or they won’t pass inspection. It just hasn’t caught up with residential. Oops, minor detail in the bill.
Will have to wait and see what transpires.
Anytime you replace a package unit or the indoor unit of a central HVAC system, the ductwork has to be adapted to the new unit. We do it with new sheet metal plenums (boxes) that fit the new unit, then tie the existing duct back into the plenums.
All residential systems are based on 400cfm per ton of cooling, and that does not change from R22 systems to R410A systems.
THis entire changeover to R410A has been a total crock...the science concerning ozone depletion by R12 and R22 was bogus. It was simply a money maker for DuPont and Carrier in particular.
This particular situation is pretty weird...all new R22 units were phased out by 2008, and just this past winter were R22 outdoor units (shipped with no freon in them) allowed to be produced. THey changed the designation of the outdoor units from “system” to a “component”, allowing the manufacturers to make them again.
It is important because people are so broke, they can’t afford the additional couple of grand to change the indoor R22 coils to match an R410a outdoor unit. For most a/c units, it is a compressor failure that condemns the outdoor unit, and for years, you just installed a new outdoor unit of the same tonnage (some are not compatible, mostly based on differences on efficiencies from the old indoor coil being to small for the new 13 SEER outdoor units).
BTW, going from R22 to R410a cost mfgs about a 10% efficiency drop, forcing them to go to variable speed motorts, TXV valves, and larger coils to maintain the mandated 13 SEER efficiency.
I believe the newer refrigerant fluid is in all freezers and refrigerators as well as air conditions. My 40+ year old chest freezer out in the garage runs great in summer and in winter here in Wisconsin. I was told by an appliance dealer that the new refrigerators and freezers don’t work well out in an unheated space in cold as we have it in Wisconsin. Is that correct?
You said,
“...we really don’t know if the “ozone hole” was always there...”
Actually, we DO know, it WAS always there.
This is because we know:
(1) that ozone molecules (O3) are created when oxygen molecules (O2) absorb ultraviolet rays.
3 O2 + UV ==> 2 O3
(2) that this process occurs high in our atmosphere where the Sun’s rays first encounter oxygen molecules in our atmosphere.
(3) that the so-called UV-ray absorbing “ozone latyer” is actually found high in our atmosphere.
(4) that ozone molecules are unstable and quickly, and naturally, degrade to oxygen molecules.
2 O3 ==> 3 O2 + heat.
(5) that Freon accelerates the degradation of ozone into oxygen.
(6) that when it’s summer in Antarctica, the Earth’s South Pole is exposed to the Sun’s ultraviolet rays 24/7. The result, increased exposure of oxygen molecules in the atmosphere over the South Pole to ultraviolet rays, increases the amount of ozone produced. When it’s summer in the Antarctic, the “ozone hole” gets smaller.
(4) that when it’s winter in Antarctica, the Earth’s South Pole is NOT exposed to the Sun’s ultaviolet rays. As a result, exposure of oxygen molecules in the atmosphere over the South Pole to UV rays is minimal. Not enough ozone is produced to replace the ozone molecules that normally revert to oxygen molecules. The “ozone hole” gets larger.
(5) that the law of gravity applies to gases as well as to solids. Molecules that are heavy relative to the molecules of nitrogen gas that make up most of our atmosphere, will not easily rise in our atmosphere. Freon molecules are much heavier than nitrogen molecules, so it is unlikely they could rise, or float up, to the altitudes where the Earth’s ozone layer is found.
(6) that if freon could ignore the laws of gravity, it would tend to “rise” where its concentrations are highest and create its “ozone holes” there.
(7) that no ozone holes have been found high above Washington, D.C. or Houston or Phoenix or other large cities where air-conditioning is widely used.
(8) that the “man-made-ozone-hole” theory is just another example of junk science.
I meant we don’t have a historical record, because we only recently discovered it.
New freezers and refrigerators use R134a refrigerant, as do car air conditioners...they are designed for lower supply temperatures than the R410a used in residential and light commercial equipment.
I don’t deal much with the R134a, but I would believe your appliance dealer.
Good post...the new satellite models completely debunk the ozone schtick.
Their are no homogenous “layers” of ozone. They constantly vary, more as a result of weather and jet stream patterns than anything.
Something that Carrier doesn’t want you to know...R410a (Carrier’s Puron brand) has a lower ozone depletion factor than R22, but has a higher “global warming factor”. That means they’ll replace R410a with something else in the near future.
Any time you replace the outdoor condenser on a split system, plan on replacing the indoor unit . Compatibility and efficiency issues if you don’t.
R-410a is not compatible with mineral oils, the type oil R-22 used. So any time a component is reused in an upgrade the component must be flushed of any refrigerant and oil. R-410a uses synthetic oil.
There are a few new refrigerants out replacing 401a. The problem with 401a is the pressures are almost double R-22 pressures. Leaks?
There is a new one R—407c. Being used in computer room ACs. Pressures similar to R-22. Possibly more efficient.
Another is brand new MO-99. Compatible with mineral oil.
You can remove the R-22 and drop in MO-99. Cool!
I can guarantee you that it's not ozone-depleting when it's circulating in your A/C unit!
We could always go back to AMMONIA cooling equipment. That technology was in place before the invention of Freon..........Ammonia is a poisonous gas......
I don’t know, my pre-1965 house had to have new ductwork because there weren’t any returns to the furnance and the outlets were all in the hallways and the master bedrooms
I think the requirements for the ductwork for residential houses got updated in the 70s.
I still believe your average house is still pre-1980
Yep, in the end there are any number of ‘refrigerants’ that’ll work...unfortunately some are flammable, poisonous,...
I know that car makers are working on CO2 A/C systems. Potentially very good performance, but they work at very high pressures. Lots of problems to deal with there (hoses, gaskets,...). DENSO seems to have an application working on a small scale. Mass market will take a while yet.
If you had an older house that only had central heating to begin with, those ducts would probably be too small for the central cooling to be efficient.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.