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To: AndyJackson
I meet someone ....

Firstly -- your case is the same as those arguing for abortion when the mother's life is at risk -- namely you give a good reason for doing something that is hard to argue against

however, I ask you, what is the % of those using contraception to stop having kids while having a conscientious marriage? And what is the % of those who use contraception to have free-for-all sex?

I have not seen these statistics, but I'm pretty sure the latter is much, much more than the former (on a divergent track, in Poland they do not allow abortions except if the mother is at risk, in case of a rape or in case the child is "irretrievably at risk" (vague) -- and in a nation of 38 million there are 500 abortions a year. In the US with about 10 times the population, in contrast there are 1 million abortions a year -- if you shrink that to Poland's size, that would mean 100K abortions if it was freely allowed. So, that means that 99.5% of abortions are really for "birth control")

I actually had a point with that example :) -- I meant to say that those who use contraception for the means you outline are, I'm sure (and I have no data on this, it's just my guess) far, far less than those who wish to use contraception to have a summer of 69 :)

To your specific example I would suggest Natural Family Planning -- a woman is fertile for a short period in a month, most women track their periods, it's not too difficult to abstain during those days. Of course one can cuddle and hug :), but restrain means that the love the partners share is thereby not restricted to just sex, but is a true love of which sex is but one component

As I said before, I and yes my fellow Catholics all believe that marriage is a sacramental union in which God is present. Hence we say that God has a right, a "say" in the marriage so to speak (hence also that divorce is morally wrong), hence using this artificial method to prevent God's act of creation and reducing the act of procreation (which is pleasurable!) to JUST pleasure is wrong.

one would by no means be "living in sin", but one would be hence be committing a sin

I don't think it is moralizing so much as talking about what we as a society consider moral and what we don't. I honestly do believe that morally accepting contraception has led to morally accepting all the other evils that we talk about

490 posted on 08/22/2011 12:00:27 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego slynie.)
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To: Cronos
Cronos, I want to compliment you on the only well-written and logically consistent post from "your" side of the table that I have seen. You ask reasonable questions, and appear to have some evidence to back up a case you are trying to argue, evidence that does not confound logic and common sense.

And let me say that you are also the first person to come accross as having a sense of heartfelt Christian charity. I don't know whether you are Polish or merely quote Polish. It would be helpful to know because it might help to explain some of what is going on here.

I will try to continue the dialog later when I have some time.

514 posted on 08/22/2011 1:51:54 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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