Posted on 08/08/2011 6:44:54 PM PDT by Hawk720
Isaac took one wife. Rebekah.
Abraham was a monogamist until, at the urging of his wife, he took a concubine. He later sends that concubine and their son away and does not take a wife until Sarah dies.
Jacob takes two wives and two concubines; he was a polygamist, and his polygamy led to much grief, jealousy and pain.
In none of their cases is it recorded that they “tested” out their wives prior to marriage to determine their fertility.
David and Solomon took many wives, but their examples are not held up for emulation. Solomon’s wives turn him away from the Lord, and David arranges for the husband of a married woman he takes to his bed to be murdered.
There is no “commandment” for testing for fertility anywhere in Scripture.
None of the people mentioned “tested first” for the purpose of determining fertility, and you have yet to establish any ancient people who had the custom of “testing” a young woman’s fertility before marrying her.
You have made claims without backing them up, and you have distorted what Scripture records about the examples you have held up.
“I know perfectly well that people have sex before marriage “certainly more so nowadays at a time when mores have become so loose that even conservatives have given up on them and joined the opposition in celebrating uncontrolled sexual behavior. “
Speaking for myself, I believe that they sinned in sleeping together before marriage, but they did not compound their sin by refusing to take responsibility for it.
I celebrate their decision to marry and raise their daughter legitimately.
“Speaking for myself, I believe that they sinned in sleeping together before marriage, but they did not compound their sin by refusing to take responsibility for it.
I celebrate their decision to marry and raise their daughter legitimately.”
Well stated...I would agree.
I think your problem in this discussion is that you believe the ELITES behave in a certain manner according to all sorts of details of religious belief (which they certainly don't) and that peasants simply don't count (but they do).
http://www.understandingyourancestors.com/ar/parishBirth.aspx provides a taste of what folks who indulge in the practice of GENEALOGY encounter all the time ~ the red-headed step chilluns and the baby with no baby-daddy ~ PLUS ~ delayed marriage.
That piece is about Germany. You try rural Russia back in the 18th century and it's a whole 'nuther story.
To show equitible treatment of the topic here's France http://www.jstor.org/pss/3787470
I'm not sure what you want to believe about our ancestors ~
The left would whole heartedly embrace Trak and his wife if they had decided upon an abortion. People have sex! Oh my gosh - that should be national headlines! Oh, the scandal of it all. Sure, its better to wait until marriage, but, very few do nowadays - even Christians. Its sad, but, true. At least they got married.
I still think Tony Weiner could make a comeback if Huma would do a partial birth abortion on pay per view and contribute the proceeds to the party.
The presence of illegitimate children or the practice of premarital sex does not establish your argument of a cultural standard that a man slept with a woman for the purpose of determining her fertility before marriage. That is the claim which you have, so far, failed to establish.
Since you have stated that there is a “record of this sort of behavior”, I’m sure that the appropriate primary source(s) will soon be forthcoming.
Perhaps instead of assigning beliefs to other posters, you should back up your own beliefs with evidence, not assertions.
I don't call it sin, but I don't think it's the right thing to do. It's kind of like drinking and driving. When I was young (and the laws were much more lax) my friends and I would get shit-faced drunk then get behind the wheel of a car and drive all over creation, risking our own lives and those of others. Only by the grace of God did nothing ever happen to me. Would anyone think that because I had done that I could counsel my children that getting drunk and driving was anything other than reckless, stupid and even immoral? Of course not! Was I a hypocrite? Of course! Did I care that I was a hypocrite? No! :-)
It's good that those young people did the right thing, and of course we hope that everything turns out well for them. Frequently, however, and perhaps most of the time, things don't turn out so well (take, for example, Palin's older daughter). In those cases everyone suffers, but it's usually the child who suffers most.
I think they were more concerned with not getting stuck with an infertile woman.
BUT then again..Track Palin private life is NONE of your business either.
tit for tat..mox-nix whatever.
Thank you for acknowledging that you are merely giving your unsubstantiated opinion, and have no “record of this sort of behavior”.
Am I to assume that your earlier claim—that multiple societies engaged, as a cultural norm, in the practice making sure that a woman was fertile before proceeding to enter matrimony—is also an unsubstantiated opinion?
(Saved my big dogs for last eh).
According to which primary sources is it recorded that Sumerian and Babylonian men, as a culture, did not marry until they had determined the fertility of a prospective wife?
Do you not recall when you would sit your daughter out on the road to receive the coin?
Hmm. Such a short memory.
Even the Bible ~ a really really really recent document by Sumerian standards, condemns the practice.
It seems that you do not know what a primary source is.
A primary source has nothing to do with which civilization was first present.
A primary source is source material about a source that is closest to what is being examined. In this case, a translation of a tablet or other Babylonian or Sumerian writings or any other artifacts from either civilization which establish the “practice” you have claimed—that men, as a cultural norm, tested their potential bride’s fertility before marriage.
So, the Sumerians would not “have all the primary sources”. That claim is ludicrous and undermines your credibility.
Where does the Bible condemn the practice of giving one’s daughter to a man so that he could test her fertility, as you have claimed? Where does the Bible indicate such a practice was in occurrence?
No doubt, you will be able to provide actual names of primary sources documenting this practice.
Abraham got into trouble by not trusting God to provide the promised child. He tested the fertility of Hagar, and now we have Mideast mess.
The Arabs are not the descendants of Ishmael. That is a myth.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm
And if it is none of my business, then it would also be none of yours...I believe we both received our information from the same place.
I responded to another person here and just stated that the thought crossed my mind...based upon a news article. I guess it could be considered part of his “private life” even after a news article that has been seen around the world...
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