Replies

"This one’s probably fake, just like almost every other one."

When the Shroud appeared in France in the late 1300's, passing off relics to the gullible didn't require much effort or skill; but the Shroud contains so much detail (much of it not easily seen except in a negative) that one has to wonder why anybody would go to so much trouble, if their goal was simply to make a quick buck. Crucifixion had been outlawed nearly 1,000 years before, but from the details visible on the Shroud, it appears that the "forger" must have had very intimate knowledge about that form of execution.

Blood trails on the arms seem to correspond to what one would expect if the arms had been outstretched and gravity had acted on the blood flow. Artists in the 14th century hadn't even mastered perspective yet, much less hydrodynamics, and why bother with that kind of detail anyway?

It appears that one of the nails was driven through the wrist, rather than through the palm of the hand. Nails through the wrists could have supported the body on the cross while nails in the hands would have likely torn free. 14th Century relic shoppers would probably have expected wounds in the hands, so this would be a negative selling point.
Driving a nail through the wrist would have almost certainly severed the median nerve, causing the thumbs to retract against the palm. Interestingly, the thumbs are not visible on the Shroud. How could a 14th Century con-man know this and why go to the trouble of depicting it?
The scourge marks appear to have left a barbell-shaped pattern all over the body. The Roman flagrum frequently had lead barbell-shaped tips on the ends of the leather thongs. In addition to being an artistic genius that painted photo-realistically in the negative, the forger must have also been an archaeologist with an eye for Roman detail.
The Shroud was woven with a herring-bone pattern that was common in 1st Century Israel, but not so common in 14th Century France.

The details go on and on and so much of it is absolutely unnecessary (and sometimes nearly invisible) for simple fraud. I don't know what exactly the Shroud is, but I sure don't dismiss it out of hand.

Racebannon posted:
“Now that the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the shroud has been proven to be scientifically invalid, “

yet Swordmaker and others above, have CLEARLY shown, that the 1988 test ITSELF has been proven flawed.

(and, it is amazingly hypocritical, that the same Christians who trash carbon dating, to prove the world was created in 6006 BC, will USE it, to attack Catholics.)
- - -
flowerplough wrote: “ancient relicy Catholic stuff”
///
i’ve greatly admired your posts, on many many subjects.
i believe we both admire Sarah Palin, who is a true Christian, who i admire very much !!!
(unlike the “christian” in the W.H., who 40 years after leaving the Indonesian muslim school, can STILL recite the “call to prayer” perfectly, with a flawless accent, according to TIME. ...but you said it much better than me:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2729308/posts?page=8#8 )

...but respectfully, some here have actually studied the research on the Shroud of Jesus, and they certainly wouldn’t dismiss your faith so cavalierly...

and if you have honest scientific points, then make them. but there is no need to insult or disparage, or dismiss without honestly investigating.

Do you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE that the shroud is real???
and, if it is real, it is real for ALL Christians.

ALL Christians, believe Jesus rose from the dead.
Why couldn’t he have left his burial cloth behind, to give faith to the “Doubting Thomas” who need a extra?

Jesus LOVED Thomas ! he didn’t cast him out for disbelief!
(but, he did say blessed are those who believe, without seeing...)

The Shroud might be real, for ALL Christians !!!
Catholics don’t condemn other Christians. they call the brothers.
(yet i have been SHOCKED AND APPALLED, at the many attacks on Catholics, i have already seen here on FR. ...just as my son has come home in tears more than once, from attacks by his “Christian” classmates.)

...and i have already agreed, most relics are fakes!!!
and the Catholic church has made many mistakes.
(and i was raised a Southern Baptist...)

but, Corinthians and Acts, speak strongly on the important of NOT splitting the one true church, to make a church of Timothy, or Titus...

i love to read Ephesians, about a man should love his wife, as Jesus loves his one true church.

Jesus promised he would NEVER leave us or forsake us.

...so i cannot believe, that Jesus would break that promise, and leave us, for 1400 or 1800 years, until he sent Joseph Smith or Martin Luther to save us.
i’ve read about both in detail.
and while i believe there are MANY Mormons, and MANY Protestants, who are better, more Christian people, than a sinner like me... i admire MANY of their followers. but, i don’t believe Smith or Luther are better than me.
(have you read Luther in his original German? if not, these quotes, directly from him, are fairly accurate:

http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-luther-quotes.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm

...again, i respect the faith of ANY person who calls Jesus the son of God, and our savior.

and again, if the shroud is real,
it is for ALL of us!!!!!!!!!

so why not at least give it a fair chance, unlike atheists like Dawkins, or the people who pushed the lies of “The Divinci Code” on unsuspecting millions?