Posted on 05/12/2011 10:59:33 AM PDT by Lazamataz
So much talk of waterboarding, so much controversy. But what is it really? How bad? I wanted to write the definitive thread on waterboarding, settle the issue. Torture, or not?
To determine the answer, I knew I had to try it. I looked at my two small children. Surely, in the interests of science?.....
But alas, my wife had objections.
Perhaps her?
Sadly, she is proficient in Ju Jitsu, and I am unlikely to waterboard her.
That leaves me.
***
Seriously, I determined to give this a try, see how bad it was: Settle the debate authoritatively. Torture, or not?
I figure I would be a good test subject. I am incredibly fit and training for a 100 mile endurance run. The main thing about such an event is ability to tolerate pain. I am good at this. I am trained.
I also have experience with free-diving from my college days. I once held my breath for 4 minutes and two seconds. Once, while training as a lifeguard I swam laps without breathing until I passed out, so that I could know my limits.
To determine whether waterboarding is an acceptable interrogation technique or torture I must research it an then undergo it myself. Once I have done this, Elucidator Diogenes Tomndeb and all the rest of those liberal scum (no offense intended) must accept my now accept my now expert opinion.
So, here's what I would do. First I would google waterboarding to understand the basic concepts than I would try it on myself. First, self inflicted and then, if necessary, inflicted by my wife.(she has no problem torturing me. We've been married almost 15 years.)
These are the results of my research and experience:
The goal of waterboarding is to simulate drowning without the actual drowning or inhalation into the lungs. In order to accomplish this the subject is forced to lie on an inclined plane with his head lower than his lungs and then water is dumped onto his/her face (always keeping the lungs above the "Water line.") This simulates drowning and causes a panic.
There are some advanced techniques that make this more extreme, but that's the basic concept.
Easy enough to duplicate. I have an inclined weight bench and a watering can. No problem. I lie on this and tilt the watercan to pour water on my mouth and nose. Water goes up my nose causing me to gag and choke and splutter, but after a try or two I'm able to suppress my reflex, relax breathe in shallowly and then expel rapidly (shooting out the water) and maintain my composure. This is not too bad. with my diving experience, you would never break me this way. I can't beleive those AL Zarqawi guys were such pussies.
Back to researching the advanced techniques:
The first of these is wet rag in mouth. I try it. Ok, I can handle this too. It makes it a little bit more difficult to maintain control. I didn't realize it, but the first time around I was selectively breathing through either mouth or nose, to help maintain control. The wet rag eliminates the mouth as an option. You have to really concentrate to maintain control, breathing very shallowly on the inhale and not allowing yourself to exhale until you have a good lungfull with which to expel the water in you nose throat and sinuses. Then, you have to inhale slowly but fast enough to pull in a lungful of air before your nose throat and sinuses fill up. Difficult, but doable with some self-control. I can see where this would get very unpleasant if you lost control, but still, not terrible, not torture, per se in my book. It wasn't as bad as my vasectomy or last root canal, and not nearly so bad as the last OP I read by Liberal.
Next up is saran wrap. The idea is that you wrap saran wrap around the mouth in several layers, and poke a hole in the mouth area, and then waterboard away. I didn't reall see how this was an improvement on the rag technique, and so far I would categorize waterboarding as simply unpleasant rather than torture, but I've come this far so I might as well go on.
Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:
It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.
Here's what happened:
The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.
It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.
I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You [b]know[b] you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.
There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.
At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.
I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.
And I understood.
Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.
Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.
Once you are there it's all over.
I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.
But there's no chance. No chance at all.
So, is it torture?
I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.
It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.
The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.
It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.
Questions? Doubts?
P.S. Yes, I really did try it.
Too bad we have absolute filth running this country!
Presuming that the poster’s report is honest, the short title of the blog, “Straight Dope” would seem to be accurate.
Ok. I’ll talk. What do you want to know?
This was a very interesting article on what it is like to be waterboarded. Mind you, I’m not against it, when it is necessary.... just good to know what we are dealing with here.
It’s an interesting article. I like that he doesn’t say it’s bad to do to terrorists. He just reports what it’s all about. Actually, I’m glad we have this kind of tool.
I’m for water boarding Eric HOlder.. the tales he could tell.. WHoo EE...
Whatchya got?
MAybe kidnapp him for a couple of hours..
Personally, I wouldn’t call waterboarding torture, nor keeping someone awake or standing for long periods of time, or blasting music at them. What I’d call torture would be beatings, burnings, plucking eyes out, cutting, breaking bones, starving, baking, ect.
I had bronchoscopy done to me twice. While aware.
It was somewhat unpleasant.
A waterhose and camera go up your nose and down into your lungs.
Then the maneuverable hose begins to blast the interior lining
of your lungs. With saltwater. Every few seconds you must expel the
excess in an unpleasant fashion.
On the upside you get to watch the action on a monitor if you can focus.
You waterboarded yourself?
I always knew you weren’t right in the head ever since you tasered yourself:
________________________________________________________
Last weekend I spied something at Larry’s Pistol and Pawn that tickled my fancy. (Note: Keep in mind that my “fancy” is easily tickled). I bought something really cool for Gretchen. The occasion was our 14th anniversary and I was looking for a little something extra for my sweet girl.
What I came across was a 100,000-volt, pocket/purse-sized Taser gun with a clip. For those of you who are not familiar with this product, it is a less-than-lethal stun gun with two metal prongs designed to incapacitate an assailant with a shock of high-voltage, low amperage electricity while you flee to safety. The effects are supposed to be short lived, with no long-term adverse affect on your assailant, but allowing you adequate time to retreat to safety. You simply jab the prongs into your 250 lb. Tattooed assailant, push the button, and it will render him a slobbering, goggle-eyed, muscle-twitching, whimpering, pencil-neck geek. If you’ve never seen one of these things in action, then you’re truly missing out-way too cool!
Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded two triple-a batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. Nothing! I was so disappointed. Upon reading the directions (we don’t need no stinkin’ directions), I found much to my chagrin that this particular model would not create an arch between the prongs. How disappointing! I do love fire for effect. I learned that if I pushed the button, however, and pressed it against a metal surface that I’d get the blue arch of electricity darting back and forth between the prongs that I was so looking forward to. I did so. Awesome!!! Sparks, a blue arch of electricity, and a loud pop!!!
Yipeeeeee . . I’m easily amused, just for your information, but I have yet to explain to Toni what that burn spot is on the face of her microwave. Okay, so I was home alone with this new toy, thinking to myself that it couldn’t be all that bad with only two triple-a batteries, etc., etc. There I sat in my recliner, my dog , Moscow, looking on intently (trusting little soul), reading the directions (that would be me, not Moscow) and thinking that I really needed to try this thing out on a flesh and blood target. I must admit I thought about zapping Moscow for a fraction of a second and thought better of it. She is such a sweet dog, after all. But, if I was going to give this thing to Barb to protect herself against a mugger, I did want some assurance that it would work as advertised. Am I wrong? Was I wrong to think that? Seemed reasonable to me at the time... So, there I sat in a pair of shorts and a tank top with my reading glasses perched delicately on the bridge of my nose, directions in one hand, Taser in another. The directions said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant; a two-second burst was supposed to cause muscle spasms and a loss of bodily control; a three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on the ground like a fish out of water. All the while I’m looking at this little device (measuring about 5” long, less than 3/4 inch in circumference, pretty cute really, and loaded with two itsy, bitsy triple-a batteries) thinking to myself, “no friggin’ way!”
Friggin’ way-trust me, but I’m getting ahead of myself. What happened next is almost beyond description, but I’ll do my best. Those of you who know me well have got a pretty good idea of what followed. I’m sitting there alone, Moscow looking on with her head cocked to one side as to say, “don’t do it buddy,” reasoning that a one-second burst from such a tiny lil’ ole thing couldn’t hurt all that bad (sound, rational thinking under the circumstances, wouldn’t you agree?). I decided to give myself a one-second burst just for the hell of it. (Note: You know, a bad decision is like hindsight-always twenty-twenty. It is so obvious that it was a bad decision after the fact, even though it seemed so right at the time. (Don’t ya hate that?)
I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button, and HOLY SHIT! DAaaaauuuuuuMN!!! I’m pretty sure that Jessie Ventura ran in through the front door, picked me up out of that recliner, then body slammed me on the carpet over and over again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, nipples on fire, testicles nowhere to be found, soaking wet, with my left arm tucked under my body in the oddest position. Moscow was standing over me making barking sounds I had never heard before, licking my face, undoubtedly thinking to herself, “do it again, do it again!” (Note: If you ever feel compelled to mug yourself with a Taser, one note of caution.)
There is no such thing as a one-second burst when you zap yourself. You’re not going to let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand by a violent thrashing about on the floor. Then, if you’re lucky, you won’t dislodge one of the prongs 1/4” deep in your thigh like yours truly. SON-OF-A-BIT%CH that hurt! A minute or so later (I can’t be sure, as time was a relative thing at this point), I collected my wits (what little I had left), sat up and surveyed the landscape. My reading glasses were on the mantel of the fireplace. How did they get there??? My triceps, right thigh and both titties were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up with Novocain, as my bottom lip weighed 88 lbs. give or take an ounce or two, I’m pretty sure.
By the way, has anyone seen my testicles? I think they ran away. I’m offering a reward. They’re round, rather large, kinda hairy, and handsome if I must say so myself. Miss ‘em . . . sure would like to get ‘em back!
AMIGO, DON’T EVER DO THIS!
I remember when this first came out and I was explaining to my mother with all my prior JAG experience that there was no way on God’s green earth that the US would ever stoop so low because it would erode the future chances for peace and endanger our own who were captured..........
then I had to learn to my utter incredulity that everything I believed in, had taught and was taught had been thrown by the wayside in the War on Terror.
Of course some days are so bad that death would be sweet
Read the article closely. When he expresses, that even self-inflicted, it was so intolerable he would gladly have bones broken or any other permanent injury than to experience this again.
As far as I can see, he only tried the waterboarding... I think it would be important to try the finger smashing too, just to remain objective, don't you?
I'd say you're just haggling about the price.
In any of those cases, you'd be using physical discomfort and mental anguish as a means of coercing the subject to provide information (assuming that's your goal, as opposed to sadistic pleasure....).
In terms of physical consequences, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and "keeping standing" are obviously far less damaging.
But that just makes them "more humane" forms of torture.
Even if they can be justified in some cases, we shouldn't fool ourselves about what those techniques really are.
I do not buy the “no permanent injuries” definition.
To answer the "what is torture" question, ask yourself this: If your child was captured by the enemy, would you be enraged by the technique used?
For example, suppose - heaven forbid - my son was captured and was forced to answer questions for 24 hours straight. That's sleep deprivation. That would break my heart of course, but it would not enrage me.
Now, if my son was waterboarded, yes, I'd be enraged. I would cry out for justice, for prosecution of the interrogators.
So, yes, waterboarding is torture.
Then the question becomes, is torture ever ethical? Can it ever be justified? I suppose only your conscience can guide you there.
In other words, he proved that it causes no physical damage, and that it works. Good enough. Also, that it causes an extreme degree of anxiety. Comparing it with the anxiety caused by the intended receivers, I’d say it’s quite even.
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