Posted on 05/12/2011 4:38:06 AM PDT by WaterBoard
TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - 9 On Your Side has uncovered startling new information in the case of a man SWAT team members killed Thursday.
Medical attention was standing by to try to save Jose Guereña.
Paramedics waited more than an hour.
Then deputies sent them away
By then Guereña was dead.
(Excerpt) Read more at kgun9.com ...
No, Mat, not stupid. I also try mightily to not make personal attacks on the internet. But that makes you small, not me. What I am, is that I have been in the same situations and you, demonstrably, have not, or you would not make the statements you do. Shots are not required to come from the residence to force an entry nor does a known hostage situation demand an entry. This was a high risk search warrant and executed as such.
Common sense and normal rules of engagement? If you are not a police officer, who are you to define what the common sense and rules of engagement are? Is there a different set of common sense and rules of engagement that we have missed all these years? Don’t try the old military nonsense with me, been in both places, some thing are interchangeable, some are not. Military learns some things from LE, LE learns some things from the Military. But when it comes down to it, the Military is the business of killing people with maximum violence every time. M26’s instead of flashbangs. Unfortunately, some misguided people have tried to make the military adopt more police methods and it hurts the service. The police don’t want to take lives, but sometimes they must.
Excuse me, but if someone is sighting a rifle down on you, and you aren’t squeezing off rounds, you are clearly not for this business. You and others act like these officer went into the house silent as thieves and shot the man as soon as they saw the gun. That’s the bailiwick of Special Operations, who are not asking anyone to surrender. It don’t work like that Mat, they are not trained like that. It’s called a dynamic entry, not a stealthy or surreptious entry. It is loud by design, from the knock and announce to the flashbangs, to the orders to lay down or show themselves to the almost certain order to drop the weapon NOW!. You don’t get a second chance, them’s one of the rules of engagement. I didn’t write them, there was an engagement long ago where a suspect was given too many chances to drop the his weapon,he didn’t buy it, killed some officers, and the rule was written the next day. It was probably right around the time the Code of Hammurabi was written.
One chance. To be perfectly blunt and honest, they are not even required to give a warning, if in their best estimation that a warning would have given the suspect an opportunity to fire, endangering themselves or others, then a warning is not required. The best chance for fairness is in court, it’s not while pointing guns at police.
Magazines, not clips.
You have only a lawyer prepared statement purportedly given by the wife that this man was still breathing. They are expected to lie and lose nothing by it. It is a common practice to enflame passions and the media encourages it. If none of it pans out, they shrug their shoulders and blame the victim, saying, “hey that’s what she told me or led me to believe. I’m just the mouthpiece.”
None here know how many rounds hit him, the coroner does though. Wait for his report. BTW, are you a forensics expert or Television trained because you don’t know where those rounds impacted.
Your weight of evidence statement. Equally, if not more plausible, is that this man was involved in criminal activity hence the need for police investigation and search warrant which was obtained in accordance of the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. They almost certainly did not fabricate a reason to get in this man’s door.
They will not be fired, Pima County will certainly pay something out, (hush money) the lawyers get fed, (that’s what they live for, the could give a whit about the victim) and no one on here will remember or care when this finally is resolved.
Part of what I am pointing out is the media has played on some of the passions here, very skillfully I might add, (Marine, Father, Employed, what’s not to love, right?) and got the expected emotional response. They don’t want you to think critically, to wonder why those police where even there. I know also from bitter experience that they revel in the throwing the Apple of Discord among interest groups. They know the police are going to be secretive for awhile (sometimes good, sometimes bad) and play that against the public fears of government. I understand the public’s need for information, you simply cannot be immediately transparent on everything involved because it has and will screw the pooch on due process for all involved parties.
If the police story had not changed, then the press would be less interested. But the story went from the suspect fired into the armor plating of the lead SWAT team member to the suspect did not fire and had his safety on. The story changed from they got the wife and child out of the home before they went in to the wife and child were hiding in a closet while the shooting took place.
BTW, when I first heard about this, I immediately thought the cops got some thug in one of the local neighborhoods and that was good with me. And then my husband heard an updated version two days ago. So I looked it up yesterday to find out more. The police were going to release the search warrant info the day after it happened. And then they changed their minds. The sheriff’s office invited this circus.
LOL, is that what's required for a search warrant?
Please...
Now you're just a lying sack of crap.
Lawyer speaking for the wife says that. Common tactic by lawyers. I know their tactics and I know SWAT tactics. They don’t slink into the house. They go in loudly, because they don’t want to be accused of not identifying themselves as police with a search warrant.
Again, neither of us are privy to how many rounds hit the deceased. And officers are not absolutely required to give a person an order to drop a weapon when it is pointed at them.
False premise that these tactics are reasonable for civilian agencies? Again, your knowledge and expertise in what reasonable tactics is? I am defending my profession and will continue to do so because I know and understand them. You don’t. I don’t denigrate your profession without understanding, and if I did, you would defend it, no? Why should my profession be exempt from defenders?
FWIW, the only time I called a civilian a civilian was when I was in the military. I call people citizens now, and correct young officers that do call people “civilians”. But again, you make an assumption and paint all officers with the same brush.
I am no better than any other civilian except in one regard. I am better than any other non-LEO civilian at my civilian profession.
And most citizens knowledge of law enforcement is gleaned from the almighty, seductive television which is predicated on being about half-assed wrong and the other half science fiction. Knowledge of the unknown can be a cause for fear. Part of that can be directly attributed to law enforcement being insular sometimes, but if an attempt is made to include and inform citizenry in some of what law enforcement represents and is, and that offer is shunned, that we are absolved of part of the misunderstanding.
I don’t suggest that I would I act in a similiar manner. I am telling that I would and have seen others do so, and investigated their shootings. I am also reminding you that you and those that disagree are not called upon to do these things I do, you expect me to do it. I never promised you that it would be pretty or nice. I don’t protect any one person, I protect society as a whole. I am called public servant, but that’s kind of a misnomer. You can call me to provide a police service, but with that comes the possibility that the same police service may come against you. That is the authority that, YOU, the citizenry who chose not take up this mantle, gave me. If you want it back, that’s fine, but that makes you the police. Are you ready for that? It is not for the faint of heart, nor the soft of head.
I have noted your suggestion and I have one for you and others, if they are so inclined. Enroll yourself in a citizens police academy, do some ridealongs, see for yourself. It is an eye opening and extremely informational experience. Don’t let the media make your mind up, they have long been at odds with law enforcement and simply will not tell the truth unless it suits their liberal agenda.
Seven according to reports, which is more than you have based many of your assertions on. That equals 90% miss.
And officers are not absolutely required to give a person an order to drop a weapon when it is pointed at them.
At this point, your assertion aside, there is no evidence they did.
False premise that these tactics are reasonable for civilian agencies?
Under these circumstances, absolutely false. Just because it has become increasingly prevalent, and all your buddies agree with it, does not change the false premise.
I am defending my profession and will continue to do so because I know and understand them. You don’t.
Another false premise. I understand quite a bit about it. I have never been a teacher either, but I understand the profession and have opinions about how they do their jobs too. Interestingly, they are also government employees who believe that the stupid people who pay their salaries are in no position to judge them
Why should my profession be exempt from defenders?
Didn't say it should. However you, like Col. Jessup, seem to think since I don't wear a badge, I should just say thank you, and sit down and shut up. That isn't my broad brush, that is the gist of your comments.
Actually a good amount of knowledge and ideas about law enforcement are gleede from my fathers 30 year career.
You think so?
I'd say many civilians' knowledge of LE comes from first-hand experience.
I ain't special, so I know what happened to me happens hundreds of times across this country every day. I know that my experience isn't unique, because the cops involved certainly seemed nonchalant about it.
And every time, another person, another family, learns not to trust the cops.
Cops are just strange people.
I have lived 60 years on this earth and I have never-ever had any need for a “cop” other than to use their poor clerical skills to complete the paperwork needed for an insurance claim in an occasional fender bender along the way.
Other than that, my life would be fine without them.
I have known quite a few “cops” but they are not the kind of people that I would consider a friend or would ever want to have over to the house for a cook out; even the people I knew as friends before they became a “cop”.
Basically, I shun all people who are “cops”...
the traffic cops, the security cops, the game warden cops, etc., etc.,
all of them are on some kind of “holier than thou” ego trip...
With that Orwellian “Some animals are more equal than others” belief...
And a built-in system to cover for one another...
“...Rules for thee but not for me...”
I really just have no need for that kind of crap.
My brother in law is a swat medic ... oh, the stories I could tell...
I have also been doing alot of typing today starlifter and you have to go after the grammar. Nice. The high school comment, come on, really? What’s next, the obligatory donut joke?
Don’t presume that I ever said that probable cause is sufficient for a conviction. It is sufficient for arrest or warrant. That’s all.
Let me be clear as well: There is nothing lost with trust but verify and your characterization of those men and women as thugs is also unreasonable. If we knew each other personally, I would make it my life’s mission to introduce you to some real thugs, their environs, their history and in living color. You would have to promise not to eat anything greasy before hand.
Pardons, but I will wager that I have spent more time in the courtroom, (which I excel at) than you, so I need no lesson in what is required for conviction. My investigations and reports have made many take a plea before jury trial proceedings. I just wish I had some answer for why judges refuse to sentence and keep offenders but that’s another issue...
Where does it say he died outside? And they watched him for a half hour? Did some jive turkey lawyer say that to a liberal media source or did the people who were there say that? Wake up. Lawyers and the media are paid to lie, every night. If you want to ingest that garbage that’s on you. All this time, I have been telling you and others that I have been in similiar situations and I am telling you that you should try and trust that those officers did not willfully go in there with murderous intent and then willfully not make an attempt to save the decedent’s life. I am telling you from my professional experience, that if that man could be saved, they would have tried. You cannot ask 12 to 16 men and women on the team and untold members of supporting officers to cover up a negligent homicide. Do you really think of officers as that soulless, that indifferent? You want to believe that, it’s easy and it would certainly justify any misgivings you have about LE. “See, I told you they are all murderers?” Real easy.
Damn right I defend the thin blue line, when it is appropriate. No citizen ever helped me subdue someone that I was fighting with, only another fellow officer, so why shouldn’t support the ones I shared the danger with?
Why are you sad for our minds, my mind? Because I will stand up to you when you make accusations and assumptions without the facts, without prior knowledge or experience?No, I guess I do alarm you a bit. You expected me to be the knuckle dragger with the ticket book and a donut. Happy to disappoint you.
I don’t have any desire to crow to my colleagues about sparring here on FR. Most would say, what’s the point? Ain’t nothin’ gonna change, ML. People break laws, police do their jobs, sometimes it’s ugly, but it the old world gonna keep on a’turnin’.
I don’t drink when I’m out. I carry concealed everywhere and drink clouds the judgement. I cannot justify that if I am needed to resolve something. Hope that is counter to your stereotype as well.
And you are so living up to the first portion of your name.
But thanks for playing...
I view every policeman as a rabid pit bull loose around town, with crazy friends....
The only sane solution is to make them liable for the acts they commit, civilly.
Long past time to drain the swamp.
But no practical experience? Ah, there’s the rub...
I know alot about WWII, but would never deign to tell a Hurtgen Forest vet what is what like...
Sir, I am glad that you have lived such a life that you never were in need of police services other than an accident report, which I might add, police officers should not do because it only benefits lawyers who make their cases based on the narratives written by the officers. Unless the officer witnessed the accident, they should not be called on to write it. It is a civil matter unless a party is seriously injured. Then there are specialist for that.
Let insurance agents come out to the accident site, one for each party.
Some are not so fortunate to have the lived the life you have.
Sorry you shunned cops as friends, I bring good food to cook outs and always bring your tools back in better shape than when I borrowed them. I also don’t ogle your wife’s fanny. (Too much anyway).
“...No citizen ever helped me subdue someone that I was fighting with, only another fellow officer...”
“...People break laws, police do their jobs...”
-
Yup, you have the same mindset as every other cop I have ever known...
Your entire life has become a game of “Cops” vs. “citizens”
just like playing “Cowboys and Indians” when you were a kid.
But you never grew up.
It’s really very sad.
I pity you.
The house may be only 1500 square feet, but every place a person can hide must be searched twice. Every room, closet, basement, crawlspace, underneath beds, cupboards, everywhere. You cannot get sloppy or go fast, you cannot let your mind drift to the guy that went down, you have to focus on the search. That takes time, and a SWAT team leader will not rush it, and will not bring EMTs into a house that is not cleared. EMTs will not by policy not go into a house that has not be cleared by SWAT team leader authority, if those assets are used. The Fire Department will not either. They stage elsewhere.
Sir, I would like to think that someone of your advanced age and experience would perhaps be above such broad strokes. As I can never say what your life was like, you cannot do the same with me.
I was mature enough to be responsible for multimillion dollar equipment and led men in the service of my nation.
I also lead men and women in a police department, have been entrusted with their care and maintenance if you will and had a diverse and fulfilling career that is not quite over.
I am as sober in my daily and professional life as the pope and while I doubt your sincere pity, I really will be ok. So grieve not...
Fella, when someone asserts something that has been directly contradicted by my own experience, I call them a liar. If that diminishes me in your eyes, I guess I'll have to find a way to carry on, LOL.
I've seen first-hand how little it takes to get a search warrant signed, if the judge even actually signed it.
But thanks for playing...
I ain't playing, but ain't that just like a cop: tear up civilian's lives, and it's all good, as long as you go home at night. probably get drunk and laugh about it afterwards with your cop buddies.
“SWAT team leader will not bring EMTs into a house that is not cleared....”
-
Rules, rules, rules...procedures, procedures, procedures...
Do those rules and procedures apply equally to “the citizen” who is shot
as they do to “one of yours” who is shot?
No they don’t-and you know they don’t.
If one of “your guys” had been shot,
the swat medics would be all up in there.
You know that is true.
“Rules for thee but not for me!”
“Some animals are more equal than others!”
You are a sorry excuse for a human being.
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