Posted on 05/12/2011 4:38:06 AM PDT by WaterBoard
TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - 9 On Your Side has uncovered startling new information in the case of a man SWAT team members killed Thursday.
Medical attention was standing by to try to save Jose Guereña.
Paramedics waited more than an hour.
Then deputies sent them away
By then Guereña was dead.
(Excerpt) Read more at kgun9.com ...
It does not matter if the safety was on. There is neither time or opportunity to check this, nor is it even necessary because slight downward thumb pressure makes that puppy hot. He pointed the weapon at the officers. They responded. How would you respond under similiar circumstances?
And your definition of execution is exclusively your own. And those that point out my so called fallacies have no experience in the matter. I do.
It would not matter it was one bullet, 71 or every bullet they had. You are convinced it was execution despite the clear facts to the contrary.
He was not civilian, he was a citizen. And I don’t want this guy dead, he meant something to someone. Just as those officers have family as well. They don’t give up their right to continue living just because they become officers.
How would you react if you were suddenly awakened and told by your wife that there were people with guns outside your house and then someone pushed open your front door? There are better ways to serve a search warrant. Why not serve it when the wife is at home alone????
You are awfully eager to excuse cops shooting a man to death in his own home. So far there is no evidence of wrongdoing to support the execution of the raid. When such a radical mode of entry is used the police should be darn sure there is just cause, well researched and double verified, and that all alternative means of effecting an arrest and search are explored. Dynamic entry should be of absolute last resort, not first option taken as it seems to be done in these stories.
I also think you are dead wrong in the supposition that SWAT raids stop when drugs are legalized. Even if drugs are legalized, SWAT teams will continue to exist until there is political will to disband them and so long as SWAT teams exists they will be used for what ever purpose they need to justify their continued existence and funding.
On May 23, 1934, Bonnie and Clyde’s tan ‘34 Ford was ambushed by ex-Texas Ranger Frank Hamer and six officers. At least 167 shots hit the car and about 50 hit them.
In this situation, 71 rounds hitting the target manifests a lack of fire discipline or a simple ambush with full intent to kill.
Think about it. More than 140% of the firepower to kill Bonnie & Clyde was used in this reported incident.
Mat, I see these raids regularly. I do not work for that agency but I know the dog, know the breed.
First, it was NOT A NO-KNOCK. Clear on this? NOT a NO-KNOCK. They knocked and announced, had lights and sirens in concert with the knock and announce. Standard stuff, all done in mind to show the occupants they are indeed the police. Again, they do not need shots fired, or imminent threat to execute this search warrant. You are clearly showing that you have some military experience but not law enforcement experience. That is not meant to impugn your service, I have worn both uniforms myself. There are differences in operations. I am not here to educate you in SWAT raid procedure but typically the adjacent houses are not evacuated during a drug search warrant. This exposes the team and can tip off the person you are trying to arrest. It is covert until the second they knock and announce. You are confusing this with a barricaded subject who has already actively engaged law enforcement with firearms.
Fully automatic weapons are common with SWAT units, so is the firing of them. They were presented with a very serious firearm threat, an AR-15 and did what they were forced to do.
Your comments on humanity aside, I was merely commenting that the most likely scenario was Guerenas died almost immediately after being hit seven times. You assume that there was something that could be done base solely on the statement of the wife, who is now under the direction of a lawyer. You and others are suggesting that EVERY officer and attached medical specialists there willfully denied him any medical attention and were working in collusion and concert to achieve this. Does that even sound plausible?
Mr. Guerenas did not allow for his innocence to be vindicated or his guilt to be discovered during court proceedings. He forced the issue.
Am I to conveniently ignore that there are lights and sirens outside my residence and people wearing police equipment with “police” prominently displaying, saying “Such and such police department we have a search warrant for the premises, we demand entry now.” And when they do make entry the have police issued shields and flashlights and the entry was probably pre-empted by a flashbang? Who else does those things? This whole gang posing as cops crap is being blown out of proportion.
I would get clear of any weapons, identify myself as law enforcement and instruct my family to do exactly what those officers say to the letter.
Why let the suspect of your investigation go anywhere? Give him a chance to flee, or warn others, or destroy evidence at other locations? That’s not better, that’s convenient for the suspect and it’s not meant to be convenient for the suspect.
There was evidence of wrongdoing or no search warrant would have been issued. According to the media, evidence in the phone and computers were siezed at Guerenas house. You are assuming that this SWAT Team, which is indeed large does not do it’s homework. They are briefed by other investigators and do their own intelligence gathering. Alternative methods are always explored. SWAT is not the first choice always but you are assuming it was. Were you there for the briefing? No, neither was I, but I have sat through many, probably will do another soon.
If you had read my posts, you would see that I posit that SWAT raids would be drastically reduced with the onset of legalization, not eliminated completely. They have a purpose and it would be hard for any agency to justify using them for anything less than high risk endeavors.
Plenty of opportunity to arrest the guy on his way home. There’s one road into that community. With plenty of area to stop him with no danger to anyone though the cactus and coyotes might suffer. Unless the guy was carpooling to work at the mine which is not in a populated area.
As for lights and sirens the neighbor who was interviewed said that he heard gunshots and came outside. Not sirens. And he said nothing about lights. Maybe that was edited out of the interview. He definitely said that gunshots are what prompted him to come outside. (genius!) And the SWAT team members said to go back inside.
Right or wrong, I know I would feel guilty before God if in my duties, it took 71 hits to control a guy.
If it took that many, then they were using the wrong weapons and ammo in the situation.
I concur with your assessment that he was probably dead after the first 7 rounds, or if not, probably would have died from loss of fluids after the first few.
NO ONE in their right mind will just sit there and NOT defend their family when a bunch of men come crashing though YOUR house.
You protest too much, and ignore common sense.
The man is DEAD, because a bunch of SOBs shoot at a man in front of a young child 71 times.
He was MURDERED and EXECUTED.
We have rights to be secure in our homes. Period.
As you know these two were killed in a classic roadside ambush by officers who were laying in wait concealed with automatic weapons and with no intent to give them a chance to surrender. The amount of rounds fired and hits is in dispute but that’s another thread.
Now that was a military op.
One of the first things to go when suddenly confronted by an armed subject is fire discipline. Officers and soldiers fire until the threat is no long a threat, and sympathetic fire is common to both professions.
An ambush with full intent to kill? An ambush is static, these officers weren’t doing doing a bounding movement to contact or marching fire or anything of the sort. They were clearing a house and were confronted by the suspect who was armed.
These are not just some “men” off the street. The are uniformed police officers, highly trained ones at that, not some half baked gang who are ripping off the dope house.
No one in their right mind is confronting a SWAT team. You want to use your version of common sense, feel free. I intend to live through the experience and playing last stand ain’t the way to go.
I know when a burglary is happening, it is NOT like a SWAT raid. Burglars do not want to enter into a home in a tumultuous manner. Home invasions with multiple subjects happen almost exclusively to those who are in the drug trade, they are not random, their targets are specific and they do not include you.
They did not hit him 71 times, it was seven. Again, combat is fluid and not all rounds are going to find their mark, nor can you reasonably expect them to when it goes loud. Looking at the pictures, I suspect they engaged him started backing out and continued to engage through the door.
One of the deputies fell and apparently the others thought he was shot. Well, you can imagine what traspired next.
I don’t know what weapons they are issued but I am fairly certain that with a team as large as they are, they are not using substandard weapons or ammunition. This team might even be a full time team, I don’t know.
This is just Waco, redeux.
They could have done this elsewhere and didn’t. Lots of posters have stated to that fact.
NO ONE that is your average citizen will know in the minutes of the confusion WHO the H#LL is breaking in.
To expect this to be common knowledge, shows how LITTLE common sense you have.
How much are you getting paid to be such a shill?
“There was evidence of wrongdoing or no search warrant would have been issued.”
HAhahahahahahaha, yeah right, we are from the government, and we are here to help!!! And judges are SO just!!! HA!
YOU’RE DEAD, SUCKER CITIZEN. Bunch of idiots.
Lack of presence and endurance were the expressions used to describe poor fire discipline several decades ago. Gaining fire superiority is the immediate response, but IMHO, if it took me 71 rounds to put a guy down, no matter what anybody else said, the only place you would be able to find me for about a year would be on the range, rehearsing and trying to figure out how to never allow such a thing to happen again.
If they aren't, there are more fundamental problems in wherewithal in their thinking and others probably need to step in and relieve them of their duties and likely their authority.
We don't have adequate evidence to judge them one way or the other.
As a matter of social commentary and recognition of moral degeneration which has occurred in our nation over the past 70 years, I suspect the next area ripe for degenerate behavior is the allowance and promotion of murder by legitimate methods lacking discrimination of legitimate behavior.
Nobody thought even 20 years ago that homosexuality would be tolerated, let alone condoned in the US military. 40 years ago nobody thought Islam would be rationalized in the US. I don't see the US turning back to God at present, so the trend will be towards further moral degeneration and turning upon ourselves.
IMHO, there will likely become a trend for morally degenerate people to have a lust for murder, and may seek in the more degenerate areas, to find social acceptance of their lust by working in law enforcement. This is not to imply LEOs are murderers, but that a trend of moral degeneration is pointed in that direction. This trend needs to be put in check.
Reports of these types of incidents are indicators that this type of moral degeneration might already be more advanced than generally perceived.
I found another early report of what happened, and there are comments from some people who knew the Marine.
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14580187/tpd-confirms-second-swat-situation-in-two-days#
The post of the coworker doesn’t give much credence to the police reports.
There is a deeper trend here.
In some respects, it really doesn’t matter if the LEOs were in the right or not.
If they lose the faith, trust, and confidence of the public, they are going to need a lot more than several SWAT teams to perform their duties and maintain their own security.
Mexico is a prime example of what happens when the public loses faith trust and confidence in legitimate authority.
Do you have some sort of disability? Did I suggest the thugs don't KNOW the policies? Do you really think your response is actually an answer to the contention policy is not performance?
You talk about getting "eaten up" by lawyers, then propound assertions that any self-respecting teenage girl would be ashamed to float.
For God sake man, show some dignity. You aren't voicing an "opinion": you're advocating. Do you honestly thing anyone who has been a FReeper for any length of time can't tell the difference?
Sure, there's no judge here to hold you in contempt, but damn near every other poster on this thread is holding you to exactly that! And then you have the gall to whine about how rude you're treated? In my book that makes you either a sociopath, or a moron. In either case, it means you have no business being armed and operating under the color of authority.
No, being a Marine is not a capital offense nor is a guarantee of sainthood.
One does not need to be a saint to be presumed innocent in this country, or is that another "policy" you've forgotten?
Besides, aren't you forgetting seventy some bullets in less than ten seconds? That alone is prima facie evidence that team is guilty of at least sh!tty fire discipline.
If they can't be bothered to correctly manage the most significant portion of their mission, are we supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt on crossed 't's and dotted 'i's?
Honestly: in what dream world to you argue?
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