Posted on 05/08/2011 8:40:39 AM PDT by rhubarbb
Sorry if this is in the wrong area, this is my first time posting. I'm a long-time lurker who loves FR and I use what I learn all the time against my friends, some of whom (Unfortunately) are liberal. It's the price of going to a big college. I'm really good about speaking the truth to them and showing how they're wrong, and most of my best arguments come from FR. But there's been one question that one of my friends keeps repeating and while I know he's wrong I can't prove it and it's bugging me.
I know the best researchers are here and I figured someone here has figured out how to set the Obama-bots straight on the issue. I've searched through all the other threads on eligibility and didn't find anything.
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My friend says that Spio Agnew (Nixon's VP) proves that you don't need two citizen parents to be a Natural Born Citizen.
Now, I know that the Vice President must meet the same elgibility requirements as the President, and therefore must also be a Natural Born Citizen (12th Amendment). My friend claims that Spiro Agnew's father was a Greek Citizen when he was born. I've tried to find any information to confirm and deny this, but can't find anything. I know he's wrong (he's a Dem... haha) but need help with the proof.
I can't see Nixon choosing someone, and the Republicans electing, a vice president that was obviously unqualified for office.
So my question:
Is this true? Have one of the researcher's looked into Agnew's citizenship? Did Nixon choose a VP that was not a Natural Born Citizen? And if so, did he hide it like Chester A. Arthur did? I figure that one of the reasons I can't find any information on it might be because he did the "hide your past" thing like Arthur.
Any help would be great and help to take a liberal down!!
You’re making a conclusion based upon a guess. And not a good guess. Good luck to you and your delusion though.
No, you don't know as usual.
Lets repeat again for you:
"Vattel derives a system of law governing the nation-state and relations between nations, from his natural law hypothesis," which the Founding Fathers of these Unites States believed in and derived our Constitutional form of government.
Lengthy BS!
Are you under the impression that the only person who wrote on the “Law of Nations” was Vattel?
So was his VIRGINIA BORN wife, so what are you going to believe: A census form with obvious errors on it, or all the other documantation showing Spiro Agnew's father as a naturalized citizen in 1903?
A natural born American citizen is the offspring of 2 American parents, and born on U.S. Soil.
That’s why Hussein is ineligible, he claims a Kenyan as his father. It doesn’t matter where he was born, his father makes Hussein ineligible.
The Usurper is laughing at ignorant Americans, as he occupies The White House. He knows that half of America is too stupid to know he’s illegal.
He told the big truth, dad was a Kenyan, knowing full well that no one that knew that made him ineligible would have the guts to say so, and also knew that those who were schooled by the teacher’s unions are unaware of Constututional requirements to be POTUS.
B.Hussein Obama-Barry Soetoro(Indonesian Citizen), is laughing at America everyday.
Y’all are displaying your stupidity for everyone to see. It would be different if no one had ever corrected you before.
“Main Entry: jus gen·ti·um
Pronunciation: -’jen-shE-&m, -ch&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, literally, law of nations
: a body of law recognized by nations that is binding and governs their relations with each other : INTERNATIONAL LAW called also law of nations
NOTE: In Roman law jus gentium referred to the rules and laws that were common to the various nations or peoples under the Roman empire and were used in cases between non-Roman citizens or between a Roman and a non-Roman citizen.”
Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of Law
“Lengthy BS!”
Yes, court cases are soooo hard to read. Feel free to go back to the comfort of WorldNutDaily.
No. Vattel comprehensively wrote about natural law.
If 99% of the people who said 1 + 1 = 3 you'd believe it.
“Are you under the impression that the only person who wrote on the “Law of Nations” was Vattel?”
Please do not tell him otherwise. He might have to remove the Shrine of Vattel in his living room...
According to Vattel:
“The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”
Citizenship follows who the father is, not place of birth - according to Vattel. So...is there any US law that says birth in American does NOT make one a citizen unless your father is a citizen of the US?
Has anyone, applying for a passport, been required to prove their father was a citizen to get a US passport?
Does US law follow Vattel on citizenship?
Of course, the answer isn’t just no, but HELL NO!
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
And a telling quote on Blackstone's Commentaries
"The Commentaries are often quoted as the definitive pre-Revolutionary War source of Common Law by US courts; in particular, the United States Supreme Court quotes from Blackstone's work whenever they wish to engage in historical discussion that goes back that far, or further (for example, when discussing the intent of the Framers of the Constitution). Blackstone's work is divided into four volumes, on the rights of persons, things, of private wrongs and public wrongs."
From US Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story in 1833 Justice Joseph Story on Common Law and Constitutional Origins of the United States Constitution
We thus see in a very clear light the mode, in which the common law was first introduced into the colonies; as well as the true reason of the exceptions to it to be found in our colonial usages and laws. It was not introduced, as of original and universal obligation in its utmost latitude; but the limitations contained in the bosom of the common law itself, and indeed constituting a part of the law of nations, were affirmatively settled and recognized in the respective charters of settlement. Thus limited and defined, it has become the guardian of our political and civil rights; it has protected our infant liberties; it has watched over our maturer growth; it has expanded with our wants; it has nurtured that spirit of independence, which checked the first approaches of arbitrary power; it has enabled us to triumph in the midst of difficulties and dangers threatening our political existence; and by the goodness of God, we are now enjoying, under its bold and manly principles, the blessings of a free, independent, and united government.
Note that he states the Common Law is part of the "law of nations" - small l small n. Vattel's Law of Nations is rather like calling a textbook "American History" or "Biology," Vattel doesn't "own" the name. There were books before Vattel with that name.
And "INTERNATIONAL LAW" that is written by man must be coherent with natural law.
And you know the answer to why that is?
I'll give you a Kewpie doll if you get it right. I won't be holding my breath.
Please don’t do that.
I like you and appreciate your intelligence. Your humor as well.
It would be sad and unfortunate if you left FR.
LOL
And natural law COULD say that citizenship follows parentage (Vattel), or it COULD follow birth (US Constitution).
The US Constitution doesn’t contradict natural law, but neither does it follow Vattel on citizenship. That is why they used the common law term already in use among the states - natural born citizen.
Then why the need to change the presidential eligibility language from Hamilton's born a Citizen to John Jay's natural born Citizen?
During the process of developing a new U.S. Constitution Alexander Hamilton submitted a suggested draft for a Constitution on June 18, 1787. He also submitted to the framers a proposal for the qualification requirements in Article II as to the necessary Citizenship status for the office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.
Alexander Hamilton’s suggested presidential eligibility clause:
"No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States."
Many of the founders and framers had a fear of foreign influence on the person who would in the future be President of the United States since this particular office was singularly and uniquely powerful under the proposed new Constitution. The President was also to be the Commander in Chief of the military. This fear of foreign influence on a future President and Commander in Chief was particularly strongly felt by John Jay, who later became the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. He felt so strongly about the issue of potential foreign influence that he took it upon himself to draft a letter to General George Washington, the presiding officer of the Constitutional Convention, recommending/hinting that the framers should strengthen the Citizenship requirements.
John Jay was an avid reader and proponent of natural law and particularly Vattel's codification of natural law and the Law of Nations. In his letter to Washington he said that the Citizenship requirement for the office of the commander of our armies should contain a "strong check" against foreign influence and he recommended to Washington that the command of the military be open only to a "natural born Citizen". Thus Jay did not agree that simply being a "born Citizen" was sufficient enough protection from foreign influence in the singular most powerful office in the new form of government. He wanted another adjective added to the eligibility clause, i.e., 'natural'. And that word natural goes to the Citizenship status of one's parents via natural law.
The below is the relevant proposed change language from Jay's letter which he proposed to strengthen the citizenship requirements in Article II and to require more than just being a "born Citizen" of the United States to serve as a future Commander in Chief and President.
John Jay wrote in a letter to George Washington dated 25 Jul 1787:
"Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen. "
See a transcription of Jay's letter to Washington at this link. This letter from Jay was written on July 25, 1787. General Washington passed on the recommendation from Jay to the convention and it was adopted in the final draft and was accepted adding the adjective "natural" making it "natural born Citizen of the United States" for future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the military, rather than Hamilton's proposed "born a Citizen". Thus Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution, the fundamental law of our nation reads:
Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of U.S. Constitution as adopted 17 Sep 1787:
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
There you have the crux of the issue now before the nation and the answer. ---CDR Charles Kirchner
“The Law of Nations is the Law of the sovereigns; in free states the Law of Nations is the law of the people.”
James Wilson, Lectures on Law, 1791. Signer of the American Declaration of Independence, signer of the U.S. Constitution, U.S. Supreme Court Justice.
Vattel’s Law of Nations is the law of the people.
Law of Nations, chapter 19: A natural born citizen is born to citizen parents.
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