Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: kearnyirish2; AfricanChristian
they also felt that they could do the same function themselves.

True. And AfricanChristian is correct that Africa has a number of different cultures, etc. The Ethiopians and North Africans in particular can't be clubbed with the sub-Saharan africans as their cultures and civilisations have always been in step with the Eurasian land-mass.

I see the problem of the native Americans and Aborigines as related to a civilisation at an earlier stage of development coming upon a civilisation at a much later stage.

What happens is classic -- the women adapt, but the men feel that they can no longer be bread-winners and so sink into alcohol or other substance abuse.

It's not so bad if the civilisation is just a few "steps" behind. But the problem is that much of West Africa and Southern Africa that was not in contact with the Arabs by the 14th century was still very much behind Eurasian powers. In fact, with the notable exceptions of West African Ghana etc states the rest of sub-saharan africa and africa south of Ethiopia was still tribal and nomadic and had not evolved socially beyond that.

They could not cope as a society (note as a society -- individuals brought up in a different culture would act differently -- this is not a race thing) with the heightened development and social needs for industrial farming or trading etc.

The trading was done by the Indians, specifically Gujaratis and Marwaris who have been traders for millenia.

This is similar to the position in Western Europe in the 5th-7th centuries, in Scandanavia from the 7th to the 13th centuries and in Central Europe until the 12th century. The Jews performed the same part in Europe as Indians do in Africa (this of course means that AFrica CAN catch up).

26 posted on 04/27/2011 4:59:52 AM PDT by Cronos (Christian, redneck, rube and proud of it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]


To: Cronos

Your knowledge of Africa is admirable. However, there are a few points I would like to raise.

1. West Africa was the home to many large states in the pre-colonial era with highly developed social systems. Examples include the Yoruba states, Dahomey, the Benin Kingdom and the Kwarafa Kingdom. Central Africa also had many large states like the Kongo kingdom. The Zulus and Xhosas in South Africa also had relatively well developed societies.

2. I agree that there are communities like the Masai, the Pygmies and Kalahari Bushmen who find it extremely difficult to adapt to modern society. Unfortunately, Western media tends to concentrate on these groups creating a warped view of African society.

3. I don’t agree that African have the same problems with adapting to modern society as the native Americans and Aborigines. The success of the African diaspora in Europe and North America shows that the problem is not the inability to adapt to the twenty first century, but the absence of opportunities at home.

4. Indian immigrants are very active economically in Africa but there are other major players like the Lebanese, the Igbo and the Hausa in West Africa and the Kikiyu in East Africa. Kano in Northern Nigeria was and still is a hub of trade between Northern Africa and the Sudan. The Igbo of Nigeria also have play a large role in trade in West Africa.

It is instructive that the richest African is a Hausa-Fulani from Kano.

5. I believe that the Chinese will be more successful than the Indians in the long run. The Indians have a very long history in Africa but have remained a very closed society. The Chinese (this might surprise you), are considered more open the Indians. You are more likely to see Chinese making attempts to interact with the locals than the Indians (they don’t carry the baggage of the Indian caste system with them). In addition, Chinese are more likely to marry local girls than Indians (Jean Ping, head of the African Union is the son of a Chinese trader).

6. A major problem (some say the major problem) with the modern African state is that most African states are artificial. Borders of African states merely reflect French, British, Portuguese and Spanish areas of influence decided in 1884 - 1885 Berlin conference. For example, the British grouped the traditional slave raiders (the Northern Sudanese) with people who traditionally resisted slave raiding (the Southern Sudanese). The Southern Sudanese had much more in common with the Nilotic peoples of East Africa (like the Luo of Kenya) than with the Arabised Sudanese, yet the British still stuck to their guns.

The end result was that 2.5 million people had to lose their lives before a Southern Sudanese state (which should have been created in 1956) came to be.

So much energy is expended in fighting between different ethnic groups in artificial states that development often takes a back seat. A similar situation existed in Europe until the peace of Westphalia was signed and Africa is moving in that direction, albeit violently.

7. The next few decades in Africa are likely to be more peaceful than the previous two for the simple reason that there is finite amount of violence people can take and the growing role of civil society. I cannot see a situation in which Rwanda would revert to the levels of the 1994 massacre in the next two generations and Nigeria has been spared a full blown Civil War because the memory of the last Civil War in which 1 million people died is still fresh. The 2007 crisis in Kenya was resolved because Kenyan Civil society did not want the gains of steady economic growth to be erased by inter-ethnic fighting and the Congo War is frankly speaking, running out of steam.


29 posted on 04/27/2011 8:27:36 AM PDT by AfricanChristian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies ]

To: Cronos

Your knowledge of Africa is admirable. However, there are a few points I would like to raise.

1. West Africa was the home to many large states in the pre-colonial era with highly developed social systems. Examples include the Yoruba states, Dahomey, the Benin Kingdom and the Kwarafa Kingdom. Central Africa also had many large states like the Kongo kingdom. The Zulus and Xhosas in South Africa also had relatively well developed societies.

2. I agree that there are communities like the Masai, the Pygmies and Kalahari Bushmen who find it extremely difficult to adapt to modern society. Unfortunately, Western media tends to concentrate on these groups creating a warped view of African society.

3. I don’t agree that African have the same problems with adapting to modern society as the native Americans and Aborigines. The success of the African diaspora in Europe and North America shows that the problem is not the inability to adapt to the twenty first century, but the absence of opportunities at home.

4. Indian immigrants are very active economically in Africa but there are other major players like the Lebanese, the Igbo and the Hausa in West Africa and the Kikiyu in East Africa. Kano in Northern Nigeria was and still is a hub of trade between Northern Africa and the Sudan. The Igbo of Nigeria also have play a large role in trade in West Africa.

It is instructive that the richest African is a Hausa-Fulani from Kano.

5. I believe that the Chinese will be more successful than the Indians in the long run. The Indians have a very long history in Africa but have remained a very closed society. The Chinese (this might surprise you), are considered more open the Indians. You are more likely to see Chinese making attempts to interact with the locals than the Indians (they don’t carry the baggage of the Indian caste system with them). In addition, Chinese are more likely to marry local girls than Indians (Jean Ping, head of the African Union is the son of a Chinese trader).

6. A major problem (some say the major problem) with the modern African state is that most African states are artificial. Borders of African states merely reflect French, British, Portuguese and Spanish areas of influence decided in 1884 - 1885 Berlin conference. For example, the British grouped the traditional slave raiders (the Northern Sudanese) with people who traditionally resisted slave raiding (the Southern Sudanese). The Southern Sudanese had much more in common with the Nilotic peoples of East Africa (like the Luo of Kenya) than with the Arabised Sudanese, yet the British still stuck to their guns.

The end result was that 2.5 million people had to lose their lives before a Southern Sudanese state (which should have been created in 1956) came to be.

So much energy is expended in fighting between different ethnic groups in artificial states that development often takes a back seat. A similar situation existed in Europe until the peace of Westphalia was signed and Africa is moving in that direction, albeit violently.

7. The next few decades in Africa are likely to be more peaceful than the previous two for the simple reason that there is finite amount of violence people can take and the growing role of civil society. I cannot see a situation in which Rwanda would revert to the levels of the 1994 massacre in the next two generations and Nigeria has been spared a full blown Civil War because the memory of the last Civil War in which 1 million people died is still fresh. The 2007 crisis in Kenya was resolved because Kenyan Civil society did not want the gains of steady economic growth to be erased by inter-ethnic fighting and the Congo War is frankly speaking, running out of steam.


30 posted on 04/27/2011 8:54:37 AM PDT by AfricanChristian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson