Posted on 04/24/2011 8:32:40 AM PDT by Kaslin
You are doing the same fallacy. You are ascribing to a Christian God those attributes that you think such a God must have.
But you point out that in heaven, there will be all those things plus free will. Instead, God has decided to allow torment.
But, I know, I know...I'm just Job, not God, so I couldn't possibly understand. (But, couldn't an omnipotent God be a good enough teacher to allow Job to understand?)
So you are claiming that a Christian God might not be benevolent, loving, and/or compassionate?
I am saying that if one is to be a true searcher of truth, one must not start with preconditions on what the nature of God is. I am saying that you apparently are doing just that.
Is helping a person who falls a "good" act if you do it out of kindness instead of the glory of God? Some would say that it isn't..that "good" is redefined as having to be done in love for God.
Thanks for the post! Happy blessed Easter.
I’m responding to the story. The story and video use an argument based upon assumptions and I was responding to that, not attempting to derive the actual nature of God, nor to determine whether or not He exists.
We as humans generally interact with the universe according to Newtonian assumptions. Even though we know they’re false, they work fine as an approximation for everyday activities. But we are to get rigorous in discussions of God, we have to face the assumptions of causality, etc., and even break down and examine what our definition of “God” is.
“Can there be no objective good in heaven because there’s no objective evil there?”
The article already addressed this. There can be light without shadows, but no shadows without light. Good can exist without evil, but evil cannot exist without Good.
“God could have created a world where we have free will without the suffering of the innocent.”
Could he? Let’s ask that question. What would a world without suffering look like? We are here on earth. We are made of fragile human bodies that fail, that suffer, that die. It is the nature of the bodies which we are made that suffering of the innocent is an invariable part of our existence.
Your question presumes that the suffering of an innocent serves no purpose. I would argue that the suffering of an innocent draws us to God in order to right the wrongs, and the evils of this world. That he permits us to sin so that we can come to love and redemption through him. That he permitted Adam and Eve to disobey him, out of free will, and cursed them such that they would suffer.
“What an arbitrary (and dare I say “evil”?) behavior!”
That he permits us to reject him? Hardly arbitrary. Ultimately wisdom.
Are you suggesting he isn’t Just? Is it not Just that we are punished for sin?
God always wins.
The fact that we look upon such things when they happen to humans differently shows clearly that some of God's teachings of what innocent life is have begun to stick.
Great questions, Gondring. And, a great attempt at an answer BenKenobi.
But, in the case of the good vs. evil and what-is-God question I don’t think we ever get close to a good answer. We have faith, we know that there is a reason, but I have yet to see an answer that made me go “Ah ha! Now I get it!” And, like most of us, I have searched.
As dumb as this sounds, the closest I can get is to use my dog as an explanation. He wants to get out of the yard and run around. He loves to run. He’s baffled at the efforts I go to keep him in his (very adequate) yard. He knows to avoid the pit bull down the road. He doesn’t comprehend many of the other reasons I have to keep him in the yard; the neighbors don’t appreciate him chasing their chickens and will call the sheriff, cars on the road, ranchers who shoot strange dogs upon sight, etc. I’m sure he thinks I’m being mean and arbitrary, and trying to curb his true spirit. I’m really not. Because I care about his well-being, I insist that he stay in his yard.
I know, a seriously imperfect metaphor, but that’s about as close as I ever get. But, I have faith, and am certain that someday God will give me to understand.
And, I suspect that the well-thought out, seemingly pat answers can actually alienate some people, particularly those who do not have a faith background.
Excellent article.
But we should remember this: our free will allowed us to CHOOSE the awful things that happen in this world. No one wants to be reminded that we CHOSE the type of evil that allows babies to die and good people to suffer. We WANTED to know good AND evil and to “be as gods”. Those that choose to blame God cannot accept that WE are to blame.
Since God knows the future and allows babies to die, he may see that baby to grow up and do a great evil, like say Hitler. He may also so inspire the family of the baby to find a cure for the cause of death, thus saving millions in the future.
I think you phrase the question a bit off.
The accurate question is: could God make a man who had total free will but only choose the good?
I believe if that were possible God would have done that. “Made perfect” does not necessarily mean they cannot choose to do the wrong thing - as the bible relates to us. If they could never choose the wrong thing, and only choose the good, there is no choice involved, they can only choose the good.
There is no choice involved if you are hardwired only to do good. There has to be a real choice, otherwise nobody could be blamed for what they do, they would not be able to help themselves. Since the bible says we do have a choice, we have enough (not unlimited to fly or fry people with a thought) free will to make critical choices without coercion or inability to say yes or no.
Why do most Christians do good deeds? What is their ultimate motivation?
I've concluded that most of us do almost everything we do for some self-interested reason.
What percentage of good deeds are done by Christians because they either want to avoid hell (=personal avoidance of pain) or gain heaven (=personal gain), or because they want to gain blessings in this life (or the next one) (=personal gain again)?
Sometimes our self-interested motivation is complicated. Why do people willingly go and risk their lives and fight in wars? Often, it's because of a desire for importance or glory. In other instances, it's a desire to have a particular kind of experience. In both cases, there's a perceived gain of some kind.
What's the other possible motivation? Doing something because it's right, or because it will benefit other people.
Yet most of the time, people do what's right, or what will benefit other people, because they feel that in some way they are likely to be compensated and will eventually gain personally themselves: somehow, somewhere, the universe (or God) will reward them for so doing.
Here's a great test of the ability of Christians to be self-uninterested: How many Christians would be willing to be personally damned to hell forever if by so doing all other people in the world would get to go to heaven?
Now that's a very difficult proposition for any sane and reasonable Christian to swallow. It goes far beyond the saying "greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
And in fact, that saying itself seems to acknowledge that there is indeed a limit to the ability of a sane Christian to sacrifice himself or herself for the benefit of others.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing that human beings are motivated from self-interested motivations. It isn't really in human nature to truly be self-uninterested. And that's a pretty healthy and necessary thing, because if human beings didn't care at all about themselves, then there would be no human race.
In fact, no race or species can survive long if its individual members have no sense of self-interest.
So, not saying it's a bad thing. Just noting that when you look at apparently altruistic acts, they almost always have a self-interested reason behind them - IF you dig deep enough.
Fair enough. But that shows that there could be the same thing here on earth.
Your question presumes that the suffering of an innocent serves no purpose.
I disagree with that statement, but it does lead to some questions.
What purpose does it serve to have innocent suffer without anyone knowing of the suffering?
What purpose does it serve to create a life that ends without anyone knowing it even exists? (More than half of conceived eggs are passed from the mother's body.)
I would argue that the suffering of an innocent draws us to God in order to right the wrongs, and the evils of this world.
Why did God wait until a couple thousand years ago before sending His Son to earth? What about the people before then?
Why is there a wait of thousands of years before the Second Coming?
“Of course, that’s the need for Adam & Eve—to claim none of us are innocent, even the tormented babe who has done nothing evil himself. Regardless of our own actions, we carry that sin because of being born human, right? “
I struggled with this a bunch myself....until clarity came.
It’s not so much carrying a sin as it is losing your heritage.
Suppose your granfather had been blessed with great fortune and was rich...and then squandered it...There would be nothing to hand down to you.
Same with Adam...many blessings in the story of Eden...but he squandered it...not just for himself..but for his descendants.
You can’t bang on the doors of the casino and demand your grandfathers money back because it should have come to you.
Nor can humans demand back what Adam once had. They do not have a right to it.
“So you feel there’s no reason to be angry at someone unless they owe you something?”
No, you misunderstand.
We have not right to be angry at God. He has done us no disservice.
Will you be angry at the man next door for not giving you his lawnmower? He didn’t owe it to you. He has done you no wrong. Does your teacher owe you her car? Does the President owe you a birthday cake? Does GM owe you a job?
No. And God does not owe you salvation. So you have no right to be angry at Him. He has done you no wrong.
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