Posted on 04/21/2011 10:03:09 PM PDT by This Just In
No
She is actually a child of Filipino-Chinese, immigrants in two stages. Read her first book, its very interesting.
I know where she comes from, I come from the same place. Most of my classmates through university were also Filipino-Chinese. I have been in their homes, at their weddings, their funerals, their workplaces and boudoirs, I have dated their sisters. I know her people. They are tough, hard.
Child abuse ? Many of my friends grew up picking through garbage to salvage scrap. Their families grew wealthy that way, and sent these hard-working sons to university. But they still remembered the garbage. Is that child abuse ?
What is “discipline” ? What is “commitment” ? Can we train any random high school girl to be that ? Can we make her assert that she is “disciplined” ? No.
I do believe that it does boil down to “tradition and cultural influence”, but unless that is analyzed into something specific and replicable it is of no value to anyone else.
I am enjoying my children's formative years, as I believe my kids are, sports, friends, vacations, clubs and activities make great citizens not robots! And my older one may even be able to get into Harvard if she wanted to and I don't have to use such tactics. My 11th grade boyfriend went to Cornell, is a Physicist now, and he was in no way treated like this. Gasp—he played baseball!!! And he was so successful because he was able to do all he did without parental pressure.
I'm talking about being happy with your life. Some people are driven to achieve and are never satisfied. Over time they are profoundly unhappy no matter what they achieve. Achievement in and of itself is not what human condition is or should be about.
The pursuit of happiness in the Declaration of Independence is no minor thing. It the core essence of ones life and they knew it. If you take it away, you take away their very being.
Happiness isn't all about oneself as in me, me, me. Happiness involves relationships with others. Giving, caring, loving. Achievement, in and of itself is about none of those things.
Achievement can often be a wonderful thing and is a noble cause. I think of myself as an achiever. I've worked very hard nearly all my life and I've achieved materially more than most. But it is no substitute for happiness. So yes, I hope my children achieve their dreams, that they achieve what their potential is, but foremost I want them to be happy in life.
I have known hundreds of “daughters of Amy Chua”, and I can’t say that I have noticed any significant demand for therapists among them.
Though perhaps in a therapy-culture like in the US it would be a different story. Perhaps people feel worse when they are encouraged to feel bad ?
“...but unless that is analyzed into something specific and replicable it is of no value to anyone else.”
We know it can be replicated because the results of these studies are as a result of repeated accomplishments amongst Asian students.
“Child abuse ? Many of my friends grew up picking through garbage to salvage scrap. Their families grew wealthy that way, and sent these hard-working sons....”
This is an apples to oranges comparison. One example deals with a mother punishing her child by means of withholding food while your example reveals the level of poverty, thus resulting in the need to pick through garage in order to eat.
One example involves a form a discipline which can only be described as criminal while the other example deals with human survival and the need to eat.
“What is “discipline” ?”
Depends on the the application. In this instance concerning a student, this can be described as:
To instruct or educate; to inform the mind; to prepare by instructing in correct principles and habits; as,to discipline youth for a profession, or for future usefulness.
“What is “commitment” ? “
In this circumstance, it can be described as:
To engage; to pledge; or to pledge by implication.
“Can we train any random high school girl to be that ?”
The answer would depend on the high school girl.
“Can we make her assert that she is “disciplined” ? No”
This question/answer is irrelevant to the discussion.
Wow! She didn’t allow her daughter to eat for 8 hours until she practiced the piano??!! One of my daughters is a very accomplished Oboist. She may go into this as a future career, teacher, professor or performer. Either way, if she didn’t eat for 8 hours and was forced to practice, the practice would be counterproductive if she were that hungary. So just what did this accomplish for Ms. Chua? Also, my daughter has several music teachers, many in top Orchestras, who say the willingness to practice and therefore become successful comes from within and can’t be forced.
Good article in Boston Herald pointing out that in CA, universities cannot use affirmative action ended up with 40 percent Asian. The 20 percent Asian in many prominent universities is an unofficial cut off and manipulation of SAT scores (Asians must score higher then whites before they are considered) leading to possible lawsuits. If blacks and Hispanics can qualify at lower SAT scores, can universities require Asians to qualify at higher SAT scores to maintain diversity?? Court rulings will be fun to watch.
Our family worked in the music industry for decades. Our accomplishments include a Gold and Platinum records. I don’t state this to brag. Our family understands the importance of productive practicing.
Chua’s form of discipline is wholly counter-productive, and abusive, I might add. Keep in mind that her daughter was just a child when this anecdote was expressed in the book. As you know, children will do what they must in order to survive. Amy Chua’s daughters can testify to that.
I know hundreds of daughters, though not all Chinese, forced to adhere to strict schedules in order to succeed that may not be in therapy but also do not speak of their childhood with much happiness.
Am I a failure? I had a fantastic childhood, limited pressure to succeed, friends, sports, camping, loving family...
But I went to a state school and only reached the level of a Master’s degree. Poor me! And I cut back on my schedule to spend lots of time with my kids and husband! Oh the humanity! What is wrong with me???
My dad worked in a factory for nearly 50 years. Happiest, most content guy I knew. Worked his way up to management. Supported his family. No college.
Please don’t now tell me how the Chinese mother is better than my mother or grandmother.
My position is, if you love doing something you will get good at it. If you really love doing it, you will get really good at it.
You can’t force a child to love doing something. It comes from within. When you force a child to do something they don’t want to do, I’m talking a skill, not the dishes, they may well grow to resent it and not love it. That won’t bode well to becoming uniquely good at it.
I agree with you.
But you know that...
Well, unfortunately, even the most loving and well-guided childhood can’t guarantee a happy adulthood. An over-disciplined child could end up happy or miserable, or an under-disciplined child could end up happy or miserable. It seems to depend on the sense that the child has, growing up, of whether he is part of a greater whole than himself, or whether he feels alone in the world. But that’s just my own personal opinion. I suppose none of us knows the correct formula for certain. However, a disciplined childhood, if disciplined in the right way, will at least provide the child with the tools to succeed financially or otherwise, whereas an undisciplined childhood might leave the child as so many are now - uneducated and ignorant of why they fail. Poverty when you are single is nothing, but poverty when you are married with children is quite a source of stress. It seems best to provide the child with the tools he’ll need to cope with either situation.
I generally agree with that.
My point was though, I’d rather have my child be a happy adult with moderate achievement than an unhappy adult who achieves great things.
An adult who achieves great things would be wonderful, but not at the cost of being unhappy.
When I speak of happy, I mean generally. We all have ups and downs, setbacks to overcome...
My Cambodian Wife’s (original heritage from China) 2 girls are straight “A” students.
“I think that Asians may just be smarter..period...”
When the “smart” ChiComms figure out how to anneal a bolt, give me a ping.
I could not disagree more.
We have learned so much about life and what is truly important on your deathbed that people who “get” why G-d put us here would not stunt and torture children to be their parents’ glory.
My father and his brother went every day for the last few years of her life to the elder home where their mother was. Each one, each day took her for a walk, brought her food, did things for and with her. Once I spoke to the two busy men together, telling them thar they were the most wonderful sons ever, two visits a day, 7 days a week, and that I hoped my sons would one day take after them.
They both said, “oh, it’s the least we can do. She never got to care for her parents for one second.”. You see, her parents were taken at over 50 years old to a concentration camp and murdered. They would not have dreamed of not giving everything to their mother who had survived nazi Germany.
Love is what life is about. Giving is what life is about. Everything else is fluff. Seeing the smile on the face of someone with Down Syndrome who did something she loves is as much of an achievement as a little girl playing a complicated piece of music on her violin. A child caring for animals, or inventing a world with Legos, is as beautiful as a child who lives for math or spelling.
I am so lucky to be blessed with 3.5 healthy kids (4 in August G-d willing) of all kinds. I’ve got one whose Aspergers doesn’t stop his genius but makes parts of life pretty hard. I’ve got your shy typical achieving gifted. And I have one who struggles with academics but has the best imagination in the world, delving into fantastical worlds with toys, pencils, leaves, salt shakers. He spends 2-3 hours a day in imaginary play.
Being a Jewish mom, I have exposed each to many different kinds of classes and activities. I want them to be able to compute and read and write (all are brilliant readers already), but at their own levels. I insist more than anything that they become Good people. But I don’t push. I do what is called attachment parenting when they are little so that they have me as their security as long as their little souls need it, like traditional (primitive) cultures do. The tots can cling to mom as long as they need, and then they leave that circle when they are ready. This makes very secure children.
Pushing children too young out of the nest makes them never whole, never secure, always broken, and it ruins the lives of the people they come in contact with. Insecure people have needs that are too big for the world to fill, so they dominate, they control, they destroy. Think of bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
Love, support, belief in the child of G-d you have been blessed to be allowed to raise, that is what children need. Meeting their needs, considering their wants is not “giving them ice cream for breakfast.”. It’s realizing they are not your subordinates, yes, they need limits for their own good, but they don’t need maniacal control. They need to learn how to be the best Them they can be.
Children are resilient. They can handle a tough, abusive Chinese mom. My father handled being sent to another country away from his family at age 7, to save him from the Nazis. He could handle learning a new language, and growing up with foster parents. Kids CAN be very resilient. I am hoping my own never HAVE to be.
I asked a tiger once if she ate her own young. She said, “Yes, if they don’t get into Harvard.”
Thank you both for the responses.
What I was hinting at was the Chinese Government’s birth control programs.
If liberals hate Tiger Mothers then it is because they are a bunch of drug-addled hippies who don't want their children to learn about responsibility, hard work, and discipline.
If liberals are neutral toward Tiger Mothers then it is because they are Gramscian spies who are slowly and stealthily foisting the secret liberal/socialist/communist agenda on America.
Whew! So long as whatever liberals think I can continue to rationalize my complete and utter hatred for them I'll be OK. I can go back to sleep now.
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