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The Obama Birth Certificate Debate: Two columnists go head-to-head on the birther movement
San ^ | March 28, 2011 | William Lolli and Dick Ellis

Posted on 03/29/2011 8:53:35 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

There has been a continued debate within our Opinion department on whether or not Barack Obama's presidency is legitimate, based on the conspiracy of his Hawaiian certificate of live birth. This topic continues to spike up, most recently with the mention earlier this month by potential presidential candidate Donald Trump. Opinion writers have pitched separate, individual articles about the birther topic for quite some time, but with a need to provide both sides of the argument, we created and sent five questions about the conspiracy to William Lolli and Dick Ellis, resident contributers for

Question 1) Explain the 'Obama Birth Certificate' debate, as you understand it, from its origins.

William Lolli: The so-called Obama Birth Certificate issue originated in 2007 when Obama announced his candidacy. From the beginning the issue has been mischaracterized by media and governmental forces that are vehemently opposed to the disclosure and validation of president Obama’s Constitutional credentials. The term 'birther' was allegedlly crafted by bloggers as a canard but has since morphed into a pejorative denotation of anyone questioning the validity of Obama’s adherence to the Constitution’s Article 2 Section 1 requirement that the president must be a “natural born Citizen”. The online New Oxford American Dictionary says a birther is: "a person who doubts the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency because of a conspiracy theory that Obama is not a natural-born US citizen." Whether or not a conspiracy exists is beside the point, and indeed, is a distraction from the point, as are other ancillary charges that birthers are racists or Islamophobes. At the heart of the birther issue are two fundamental positions stemming from the Rule of Law: accountability of government through transparency, and the desire to maintain the integrity of the Constitutional framework.

From 2007 to the present, birthers sought disclosure by appealing to elected officials, the press, and government agencies through FOIA requests, polls, emails, petitions, phone calls, interviews, letters, and lawsuits to try to gain access to Obama’s credential-claiming documents. They have not been successful in any of these ventures. More than 17 federal and state lawsuits have been filed, each seeking discovery that could confirm or deny Obama’s credential validity. In federal and state cases pre-trial motions dismissed the cases based upon a combination of grounds: insufficient state election laws to compel eligibility compliance, lack of standing by the parties, lack of subject matter jurisdiction, or that the “facts” had been sufficiently "twittered" into general acceptance as "true". No birther-case has ever been heard on the merits. No discovery has ever been granted, and no one has ever seen Obama’s original long-form certificate of live birth, much less any other documentation that would validate his place of birth. Thus Obama has never proven his Constitutional claims, Congress doesn’t have the guts to ask, the media exhibits distain on the subject, and the courts will not touch a political issue. The reason for this resistance is rooted in the magnitude of what is unknown about Obama: If Obama is ineligible then everything he has done in office the last two years is invalid and the financial-political effects of that truth would be catastrophic.

Dick Ellis: Obama was concocted in a laboratory by Bolshevik Jews intent on conquering the United States and the world with their one beautiful Frankenstein’s monster creation: the inexorable, indefatigable, god-head man – Barrack Hussein Obama. Their plan was brilliant. First, give him a name that will ring as all-American with the electorate. Second, forge a certificate of live birth and plant birth announcements in the Hawaiian newspapers – again because in 1961, Hawaii was as all-American as snüs and kebabs. Thirdly, educate him in madrahsas and teach him to hate the great Satan, USA. Finally, send him to the USA late in his life and abra-cadoodle – the perfect candidate for president! It’s a natural born conspiracy theory for natural born natural suckers. Delusional natural born xenophobes whose meager lease on free thought has run out are being controlled by corporations who seek to destabilize and destroy the public sector in the United States, and what better way to achieve these ends than by creating doubt about the legitimacy of the President. Do I sound mad? Do I sound like I’m espousing a conspiracy theory? Well, let’s just sit back and let the porridge call the oatmeal bland.

It’s xenophobia masquerading as democratic vigilance. At its heart is a dangerous idea that attempts to paint the democratically elected president of the United States as a kind of vile outsider who doesn’t belong, who doesn’t share our ideals, beliefs and core values. The president, birtherism ultimately expounds, isn’t one of us. Birtherism is thinly veiled monoculturalism. It’s evident in its proponents shared beliefs that Obama is a secret Muslim. That Obama hates white people. It’s all part of the package. Of course, a person can be an irrational birther and not believe the president is a secret white-hating Muslim, but the overlap in these beliefs is condemning, and these separate and disparate beliefs, which too often hold hands in a single person, are damning to birtherism as a whole.

Question 2) Where is the controversy today?

WL: With the failure of the courts to allow any examination of the merits based upon forensicly obtained evidence, birthers have turned to various other ancillary investigative venues to obtain disclosure.

•Recent documents substantiate that Obama only attended Columbia University for 9 months in 1982-1983, contrary to official accounts. •FOIA and other requests have been submitted to the State Department for passport and travel records. •The Selective Service and Social Security Administrations have been asked for documentation regarding Obama’s Connecticut-based social security number 042-68-4425. •Investigators have traced the number prior to Obama’s [ending in 4424] to Newington, Conn. resident Thomas Wood, deceased at age 19. •To date no government agency can explain how Obama obtained the Connecticut number when at no point in his child or early adult years was he a resident of the state. •Investigations continue into Hawaiian infant-death records for sequential relationships with Obama’s COLB record number 151 01961 010641. •The Nordyke twins have made public their long-form certificates with numbers ending in 37 and 38. •There are several infant-death candidates that may have had birth certificate numbers issued during the August 1961 time frame. These efforts hope to yield more information now kept from the public.

DE: Today, birtherism is a matter of right wing political convenience. Besides the fact that the birther thing is one big ridiculous distraction from all the actual and very real problems currently facing our country and our world, it is useful for politicians as a dogwhistle. It isn’t 100% politically correct or fashionable to call someone a dirty stinking UnAmerican brown shit stain who hates Jesus and apple pie. That kind of talk is simply not allowed, but it’s possible to allude to that kind of thing. It’s very easy to thanks to the f**kwitted, evidence-free birther conspiracy theory. That’s why it’s beneficial for Donald Trump, a man who has got to be smarter than he looks, to imply that – golly gee willickers, guys, you know, hyuck, I just don’t know if Obama is an American or not since nobody from his childhood remembers him at all – excepting of course, for his kindergarten teachers.

Question 3) Is there a specific party or group pushing this topic? Who has vocally supported it? Who has vocally come out against it?

WL: Vocally supported disclosure of credentials: WorldNetDaily, 450,000 from an unofficial WND poll, Dean Singleton, Notre Dame Law Professor Charles Rice, Chris Matthews, Luke Scott, Tim Walberg, Newt Gingrich, Senator David Vitter, Camille Paglia, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Neil Abercrombie, governor of Hawaii, USAF Lt. General McInerney, Michael Savage, G. Gordon Liddy, Brian Sussman, Lars Larson, Bob Grant, Jim Quinn, Rose Tennent, Barbara Simpson, Mark Davis, Fred Grandy, Rick Roberts, Lou Dobbs, Congressmen Roy Blunt, Nathan Deal, Michele Bachman, Steve King, Bob Inglis, Bill Posey, Trent Franks, JD Hayworth, and a CNN/Opinion Aug 2010 Poll that 25% of Americans think Obama is not born in the US. Vocally against: Most mainstream news outlets including NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox News Channel, blogs of the Left, the majority leadership of Democratic and Republican parties, every state Secretary of State, the Executive Branch including the Administration, State Department, Justice Department, Social Security Administration, Selective Service Administration and most federal agencies.

DE: The conspiracy is popular, of course, among the far right wing, which is pretty much the only right wing left in this country. The birther conspiracy theory rests on unbridled hatred of anything different than the person holding the theory up as truth. It’s all part of the greater right wing plan for America. The first thing a birther does if you call them on their racist shit is cry and whine and deny it, and then they cry and whine and complain that they’re being represented in the media as something they’re not. If a right winger can’t blubber on and on about how they’re being victimized, then they’ve got no defense. It’s their only card. That mean old left wing media is misrepresenting us and taking our words out of context. Pity us up here on our big f**king cross.

Question 4) Any similarity to this topic, to anything else in our history (or another country's history)?

WL: There has been an ongoing controversy concerning Chester A. Arthur, 21st President of the United States (1881-1885) as to his also not have been qualified for the office. Arthur’s father, a Protestant preacher from Ireland, was a British subject who did not naturalize as a U.S. citizen until some years after the future President's birth. There has also been some question about eligibility of presidential candidate Charles Evans Hughes, Sr. (April 11, 1862 – August 27, 1948), the 11th Chief Justice of the United States and Republican candidate in the 1916 U.S. Presidential election, losing to Woodrow Wilson.

DE: It’s become quite fashionable in politics to demonize the entirety of the democratic process. Both the traditional Democratic left in this country and the howlingly retarded right wing complain of voter intimidation, voter fraud, voter machine fraud and problems with tallying up the peoples’ votes. The anti-Bush jr. faction claimed he stole the election, and that there was wide spread voter fraud and intimidation of voters occurring in Florida. Now, the right wing goombahs are making allegations that ACORN helped to steal the election and that Obama isn’t really an American. Anything to cast doubt on our Democracy stands to serve the corporate masters, and it will continue until the people of this country have no democracy. Until the people of this country have nothing but wild-eyed goons screaming the end is nigh from the doorway of the liquor store. (Basically, a bunch of Glenn Beck’s without television or radio shows)

Question 5) How do you predict that the birth certificate topic will end?

WL: It is fairly obvious that those who stand the most to lose, if in fact Obama is constitutionally ineligible, will oppose the vetting processes. If Obama is ineligible as president, the reversal-effects of his nullification will have lasting and devastating financial and political consequences. Both political parties, all branches of government, and every American—indeed, the world-- will feel the impact. Individual and corporate culpability will be widespread, because, to paraphrase Lincoln, all of the People were willingly fooled for some of the time. But truth has a power all its own. Though painful, truth does purify and restore. And the birthers are hopeful that only truth can preserve the sovereign integrity of the Rule of Law and the Constitutional resiliency of our Republic.

DE: It will all end in ignorance and tears. The new right wing of this country is one intent to ignore all evidence. They’ve even made proud assertions to the fact that they do not live in a reality-based community, and that’s evident. From the baseless and evidence-free birther and death panel conspiracies on one hand, to the dismissal of the mountains of evidence and scientific consensus concerning anthropomorphic global warming and evolutionary biology on the other. They are a group of heads-in-the-sand denialists, contrarians and malignant dividers. Birthers are but a small symptom of their grand old clan, and aren’t worth the honest time and attention that has been afforded to them.

Furthermore, and of the utmost importance, this is America motherf**kers, Obama is innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is upon the prosecuting parties, so bring on your piles of evidence. Let’s just manage to get through exhibit A without stumbling down a road of bullshit so dense it forms the birther equivalency of a neutron star. As George W. said, “Bring it on!” But you’ve got nothing to bring. It’s a conspiracy a-go-go. Conspiracy theories are dangerous. Passion is an exaggeration, and conspiracy theories are the result of misguided passions, leading to ridiculous, but sometimes even dangerous exaggerations that can lead an otherwise rational nation into the depths of genocidal atrocity. How birtherism might result in the same horrors as those brought about by belief in the veracity of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is something that from this vantage point in time cannot be seen, but the lesson is easy to see. We must be vigilant against these passionate exaggerations. And stamp them out before they become our national nightmare, our national disgrace and our democracy’s greatest shame. It is at our peril that we take this viral meme of anti-democratic race-hate as anything but what it so obviously is.

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: birth; birthcertificate; birthers; certificate; certifigate; hawaii; naturalborncitizen; obama
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1 posted on 03/29/2011 8:53:43 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Both of these guys are idiots.

2 posted on 03/29/2011 8:57:23 PM PDT by DarthVader (That which supports Barack Hussein Obama must be sterilized and there are NO exceptions!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

1) William - Good exposure of the facts

2) “DICK” - the name says it all

3 posted on 03/29/2011 9:11:12 PM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“If a right winger can’t blubber on and on about how they’re being victimized, then they’ve got no defense.”

D.E. (whoever it is) is a perfect example of the left “projecting” their beliefs and M.O. onto others.

Everyone KNOWS the left (progressives) are the ones crying victimization at the bat of an eyelash.

I think they’re well they SHOULD be.

4 posted on 03/29/2011 9:11:48 PM PDT by Mortrey (Impeach President Soros)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
we created and sent five questions about the conspiracy to William Lolli and Dick Ellis, resident contributers for

Where do they contribute, the sperm bank, red cross?They haven't contributed much here.

5 posted on 03/29/2011 9:15:10 PM PDT by justrepublican (Screaming like a "Vexatious requester" at a Wellstone memorial...........)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

DE: Typical liberal tactics. If you can’t win on the facts, distort, diffuse and resort to foul mouth name calling.

6 posted on 03/29/2011 9:19:51 PM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s real simple. Produce the document.. End of story.. There is no debate.

7 posted on 03/29/2011 9:25:57 PM PDT by Sprite518
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Ellis, typical liberal, has no defense so he starts out by calling people names and attempting to use sarcasm.

8 posted on 03/29/2011 9:29:02 PM PDT by Terry Mross (Those Who Worship Him will all bow down and say "Yes, we can!")
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To: DarthVader

To be honest, I am shocked that a newspaper would print William’s comments. He seems to have a good grasp of what is going on and the fact that someone so level headed writes for a newspaper in California is shocking.

I hate the other gentleman’s comments, although with some of the language he used, “gentleman” is stretching it...

I give the newspaper a lot of credit for wanting to post both sides of the story and thank them for allowing us to look nice and normal, not crazy. :-)

9 posted on 03/29/2011 9:39:28 PM PDT by mrsadams
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s all a big game of Liar’s Dice, and the American People have called “BS” on the hand claimed...

But nobody will lift up the cup to see who has won.

10 posted on 03/29/2011 9:45:18 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“innocent until proven guilty”? No. Sorry. You run for POTUS you demonstrate to the American people you hold the qualifications for office listed in the Constitution.

Trump’s little display made it clear to even the MSM: a “certificate of live birth” is NOT a birth certificate.

Why the $2 million in legal expense to fight the American public from seeing a document it costs $39 bucks to obtain?

11 posted on 03/29/2011 10:04:21 PM PDT by TigerClaws
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; All
This is among the stupidest pieces on the subject. The other day I looked at many of the so-called precedents and found the elected presidents and vice-presidents fit the most stringent birther standard for "natural born" as meaning both jus soli and jus sanguinis.

The best information about Chester A Arthur was that he was frequently a liar and worked hard to hide information. The facts were not found by the press of the day and many were distracted by claims he was really born in Canada.

I hadn't run across Charles Evans Hughes Sr at the time. I have read one site that suggests he was, without doubt, not qualified under jus sanguinis and that a Democrat, FDR's future Secretary of State Breckenridge Long, brought the issue forward at the time. Maybe Hughes was qualified, maybe he was not. It's less important since he was not elected president BUT that is was an issue then, makes it a legitimate issue now.

Neither answers the question of Obama's qualification or address his flippant unwillingness to release his long for birth certificate. I realize his action is purposeful, designed as a red herring and allow him to mock opponents.

It's a scandal the courts, the congress and state legislatures (via eligibility bills) have been unwilling to look at this issue. It's evident there is, as Al Gore once infamously said, "no controlling legal authority."

How is a certified copy of a birth certificate required for a driver's license or state ID card but, apparently, not to become POTUS? What are these legislators really afraid of? Even bills that would bypass the 2012 election, and therefore questions about Obama, are failing.

12 posted on 03/29/2011 10:05:59 PM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: All
Eligibility / "Birther" bills:

NE - LB 654 hearing held as of 3/10/11.

HI - HB1116 Rida Cabanilla (D!) intro'd bill 1/11 to supply BC for "persons of civic prominence" upon request and $100 fee.

MO - Failed in '09. Trying again, HB 283 hearing held as of 3/1/11.

TX - HB 295 intro'd 11/10, in committee as of 2/15

TN - SB 1043 intro'd 1/11, in committee as of 2/23.

OK - Failed in '08. SB91 advanced to House for consideration as of 3/14.

To see the details, type SB91 in the "Measure Number" box on the Oklahoma Legislature Home Page Quick Search Form

CT - SB 391 intro'd 1/11. In committee.

IA - SF 369, intro'd 3/11. In committee.

ME - LD34, Died in committee 3/3/11.
GA - Failed in '10. (HB 1516). Failed in '11 (HB 401).
MT - HB 205 intro'd 1/11. "Missed Deadline for General Bill Transmittal"
AZ - Failed in '10 - passed house, senate refused to vote. Tried in 2/11, died in senate committee.
IN - Intro'd 1/11. Died in committee.
NH - Intro'd 3/11. Died in committee.

13 posted on 03/29/2011 10:10:53 PM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: DarthVader

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner!

14 posted on 03/29/2011 10:21:44 PM PDT by vette6387 (Enough Already!)
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To: DarthVader

Why would you call the Birther arguments those of an idiot? They were stated more intelligently than I have ever heard them

15 posted on 03/29/2011 10:26:33 PM PDT by woofie
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To: vette6387

Since you agree with Darth I will ask you too ...why do you call the birther arguments here those of an idiot?

16 posted on 03/29/2011 10:29:34 PM PDT by woofie
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To: mrsadams

I agree

17 posted on 03/29/2011 10:30:55 PM PDT by woofie
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s a shame the “argument” most frequently presented is, “Oh all that’s been settled. Move on.”

Trump as recently as yesterday was called out by leftist media (Time, etc.) for even thinking of running for president showing only his Certificate of Live Birth — and that’s all we’ve ever seen from Obama.

But in the same articles those JounaLists suggest the Obama issue has been settled.

When? He’s never shown it. Lawsuits are pending. Nobody has standing, the courts have said delaying it, and we have a fraud as POTUS.

God bless Donald Trump! Never thought I’d say that..

18 posted on 03/29/2011 10:47:01 PM PDT by TigerClaws
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To: TigerClaws

On July 28, 2009, Hawaii Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino issued a statement saying, “I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.”

So... show it! If it exists, let’s see it. Also, if the reason it can’t be subject to a public records request is the information contained is private, didn’t this records keeper violate the duty to keep the information confidential by making this statement?

Also, speaker confuses “native born” (anchor baby) with “natural born” (both parents U.S. citizens). The statement is false on its face as nobody disputes Zero’s daddy was a British colonial subject.

19 posted on 03/29/2011 10:56:18 PM PDT by TigerClaws
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

20 posted on 03/30/2011 12:15:34 AM PDT by Bon mots
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