Posted on 01/24/2011 10:05:28 AM PST by Grampa Dave
A proposal to cut off access to community college students who linger too long – loading up their transcripts with gym classes, poor grades and far more units than they need to transfer or graduate – has merit and should be explored, the system's chancellor says.
A report [PDF] from the state legislative analyst last week recommended giving first-time students a higher priority for class registration, capping the number of taxpayer-subsidized units that students can take and limiting the number of times students can repeat certain courses on the state’s dime – moves that could save an estimated $235 million.
“I think what they’ve brought forth has merit, a lot of the ideas we have moved toward implementing, and we would certainly consider these ideas,” said Jack Scott, chancellor of the 112-college system.
The state’s community colleges have often been viewed as offering everything to everybody at a low price – currently $26 per unit. But Scott said he has emphasized in his speeches that in an era of dwindling state aid, the colleges should focus more sharply on transfer education, career technical education and basic skills.
The proposals from the legislative analyst would help do that by directing state resources away from recreational students and those who aren’t making academic progress at a time when first-time college students are being turned away.
A September 2010 report [PDF] to the board of governors by Vice Chancellor of Technology, Research, and Information Systems Patrick Perry found that the system enrolled about 133,000 fewer first-time college students in 2009-10 than in the previous year – a decline that the report attributed to an 8 percent budget cut and the accompanying decrease in course offerings.
“In light of the huge mismatch between demand for classes and supply of classes we just thought this was important to examine now,” said Paul Steenhausen, fiscal and policy analyst for the legislative analyst’s office.
Some of the colleges’ policies allow recreational students to take classes while first-time students are shut out.
For example, the law currently does not limit the number of state-subsidized community college units a student can take. As a result, thousands of students have amassed far more units than necessary to transfer, earn an associate’s degree or get basic job skills.
In 2009-10, the system provided state-subsidized courses to nearly 120,000 students who had 90 or more units. More than 9,000 of these students had accumulated 150 or more units – the equivalent of five years of full-time college.
De Anza College in Cupertino had 297 students with 150 units or more – the highest number of any college in the system. Santa Ana College in Orange County had 3,660 students with 90 or more units – the highest figure in that category, as these charts show.
The legislative analyst’s office proposed limiting the number of state-subsidized courses to 100 units per student. Those who want more classes could pay up to the full cost of instruction, which varies by college but is currently $191 per unit on average statewide.
The 100-unit cap would allow for the 60 units required for degree or transfer, plus a wide margin for any remedial education requirements, basic skills or enrichment, Steenhausen said.
Scott said he could picture such a cap but only if it came with wiggle room. For example, he would not want to deny state support for a student who took 70 units at a community college, went on to get a bachelor’s degree in English and decided years later she wanted to become a nurse. The nursing program would take 60 or more units and would put the student over the 100-unit cap.
“So in this case I think what we need to do is set a general rule and then have some means by which special cases could be considered,” Scott said.
However, Scott expressed enthusiasm about a recommendation to give students with excessive units a lower priority for class registration.
Colleges have broad discretion as to who gets priority for early registration. A recent Chancellor's Office survey of 76 colleges found that nearly 70 percent give priority to continuing students – those who enrolled in the previous term. Fewer than one-third of the colleges give priority to first-time community college students.
The survey did not name colleges, but it also indicated that 42 percent give registration priority to student athletes, 21 percent give priority to international students, who pay tuition, and 13 percent give priority to college staff.
The report proposed giving first priority instead to continuing students who have gone through assessment, orientation and counseling, and second priority to new students who have gone through these steps.
Scott liked the idea of prioritizing registration.
“What I do feel strongly about is that their suggestion that in some ways people who have earned as many as 100 units at the community college ought to be placed at the end of the line – I think that makes good sense,” he said.
The report also recommended that the colleges limit state funding for repeats of physical education and recreation classes, forcing students who want to take these classes more than once to pay up to full price instead.
In 2009-10, about 52,000 students repeated the exact physical education course that they had already completed in a prior term. For fine arts classes with an activity section, that figure was about 20,000 students. (See charts below.)
"We acknowledge ... that these classes can be of value to residents and students, but there are other priorities, particularly today, that we think trump some of the recreational courses," Steenhausen said.
Scott said the colleges have taken initial steps toward limiting course repetition and are interested in pursuing further limitations.
“I really would have to ... look very carefully at each course and what it means about course repetition, but we’re open to studying that issue and limiting the number of times a person could repeat a course,” he said.
Charging full-freight for community college classes would likely stir controversy in some areas. The Santa Barbara City College trustees faced community outrage when they voted in February 2010 to start charging fees for 20 recreational classes [PDF], such as "BBQs and more" and "Salute to Sushi," the Daily Sound reported.
Four candidates for trustee positions at the college made the issue part of their campaigns, saying the college had ignored the community's concerns.
The legislative analyst's recommendations – all of which would require legislative action – come as the colleges face a proposed $400 million cut under Gov. Jerry Brown’s budget. Brown’s plan includes a $10 per-unit fee increase that would generate about $110 million, leaving the colleges with a $290 million gap.
Given those realities, Scott said he is open to suggestions for saving money and preserving the core mission.
“We don’t have any glee about this, I can tell you for sure, we do it only out of necessity," Scott said. "If the state says we no longer want to provide you with the money that we did before, then we have to say we can no longer offer the full range of service that we once did.”
Top five colleges – students with 150 or more units College # of students DE ANZA 297 SANTA ANA 286 LA CITY 270 AMERICAN RIVER 266 EAST LA 264
Top five colleges – students with 90 or more units College # of students SANTA ANA 3,660 AMERICAN RIVER 3,236 EAST LA 3,135 CITY COLLEGE OF SAN FRANCISCO 2,878 MT. SAN ANTONIO 2,702
Top five colleges – students who repeated the same PE course College # of students CITY COLLEGE OF SAN FRANCISCO 2,069 FOOTHILL 1,599 DE ANZA 1,430 AMERICAN RIVER 1,370 SANTA ROSA JUNIOR 1,356
Top five colleges – students who repeated the same art course College # of students FOOTHILL 927 MONTEREY PENINSULA 685 CABRILLO 681 SANTA ROSA JUNIOR 661 PASADENA CITY 578
However, they have become a place for the failure to launch group during daylight and early evening hours when they aren't watching John Stewart and CNN.
Our property tax bills have gone up significantly with the bonds passed to build more buildings and other expenses.
At the end of last year I heard that community colleges had professors making $200,000 + per year. These are not rocket scientist or people who could improve life on this planet. Too often they are so called professors wasting our tax $'s on PC bs.
Wow! Where I’m from, they make far less than high-school teachers.
$200,000 for community college profs? Where? I will apply.
Sounds like Kallie-Porn-ia. Colleges anymore have become EXPENSIVE babysitting for a lot of idiot kids.
“Wow! Where I’m from, they make far less than high-school teachers.”
Not all of them make those high wages.
However, in California, we really don’t have poor teachers if they are still teaching. So the CC’s need to offer more to get the CC teachers and profs.
That’s sad. Some of the best profs I’ve had were in CC, since bright academics who enjoyed the teaching and not publish-or-perish could work there and publish at their leisure.
In my opinion, the most useful government program I have ever been involved in MY ENTIRE LIFE is the California community college.
It has been good for my professional and personal development.
However, at my local community college, there are massive amounts of courses directed towards the illegal community that could be cut, like ESL classes, Chicana literature, the History of Mexico, and a bunch of other La Raza sanctioned courses.
Plus, the illegals don’t have to pay out of state tuition.
Cut the programs for the illegals and make them pay full tuition and there will be plenty of cash for American students.
This goes the same for K-12.
But liberals don’t want to touch the real causes of the lack of funding for education with a 10-foot poll.
They’d rather supplicate to illegals and give them everything on a silver platter while depriving Americans of their resources and make them fight for scraps.
here is a simple solution...if you have aquired 64 credits (that is an associates degree) then the colleges should go ahead and issue a degree in Associated Bullshit...an AS degree...this means you have no direction or ambition to find a direction...and let’s prospective employers know it
One of our neighbors has a failure to launch son, who will be 40 this year.
He went to the local community college for what seemed to be decades while living at home with his parents. Then, he went to a 4 year college and finally got an instant unemployment degree. He came back and went to the local cc for a couple of year and went to the 4 year college and got a masters in his instant unemployment degree. Months, later he is still living at home and taking some “adult” courses at the cc. He and a similiar clone are now wood scavengers, who find fallen trees and bring them home to cut the logs into firewood.
We know a couple in their 80’s in Sonoma county, and their 50 year old daughters have spent their adult life messing around the SR CC. The older 50 year+ daughter got a severe lecture from her one aunt a couple of years ago, and she got her butt into a job that pays and is in private industry and doing well. Her sister taught for 20+ years and raised her two daughters as a single mother. The two daughters are complete opposite re getting their degrees quickly and having degrees that are desired. This woman has since “retired” as a teacher. She and her current husband are ‘independent contractors’ who spend a large part of their waking hours at the local community college. Both have turned their hobbies into so called professions and teach other so called adults their hobbies at the cc.
Our sons are in their early 40’s and have many former highschool classmates doing what they call the community college hokey pokey for over 2 decades. Most of these cc’ers for life have never left home or left home and failed and came back to live off their parents.
Sounds too much like moving community colleges to a trade school format. According to this, I’m a recreational student, because despite having a degree, I’ve found the time to take a couple of courses a year at community colleges for the last 25 years. I plan on start Spanish and Fencing in the fall.
What the author calls lingering, I call continuing education and enrichment.
“That’s sad. Some of the best profs I’ve had were in CC, since bright academics who enjoyed the teaching and not publish-or-perish could work there and publish at their leisure.”
There still are some good profs in certain areas where 2 years leads to an associate degree in criminal law, health and other areas where the ‘graduates’ get jobs and are sought after.
“However, at my local community college, there are massive amounts of courses directed towards the illegal community that could be cut, like ESL classes, Chicana literature, the History of Mexico, and a bunch of other La Raza sanctioned courses.
Plus, the illegals don’t have to pay out of state tuition.
Cut the programs for the illegals and make them pay full tuition and there will be plenty of cash for American students.”
Throw in women’s/black history/asian history and the pseudo art classes for each of these pc bs areas, and the size of the problem increases re cost to the tax payers.
Illegals should not be taking up space in any class room from k-12, any community college or so called 4 year college/university. Paying for them to be in any of our teaching institution drives up our costs/taxes and weakens the education experienced or potential for the legal students.
“I plan on start Spanish and Fencing in the fall.
What the author calls lingering, I call continuing education and enrichment.”
Living in California or Texas, we really don’t need to have someone help finance improving our Spanish. I can do that for free everyday, and I often do.
Fencing falls into the same category to me as Kayaking. I don’t expect someone to pony up the money to buy a kayak and pay someone to teach me how to safely use a kayak.
So we have bought two kayaks, a tandem for my wife and I, and single fishing yak for me.
Then, we pay the local kayak dealer for our lessons.
I would like to get more use of my digital camera with my pc and tv, and I will pay or barter for the acquistion of these skills.
A Community College is for what, two years, maybe a few bachelor’s degrees and trades? If a student can’t figure out where they are going in ten or fifteen years, they are obviously looking in the wrong place. Maybe working people who grab what night classes they can manage should be exempt from time limits.
Different goals. I'm hoping to get to where I can read Spanish literature, not order from the taco stand.
Fencing falls into the same category to me as Kayaking. I don’t expect someone to pony up the money to buy a kayak and pay someone to teach me how to safely use a kayak.
You make it sound as though it's all for free. I've payed for every class I've taken. It's been worth every penny, as I've gotten something out of every class.
I think our fundamental disagreement is over the role of the community college. You seem (although I could be wrong) to think that they exist as stepping stones to employment, and I see them as community assets whereby citizens can take classes that count towards a degree, or just take classes for personal growth.
To clarify, my last. I want to read Spanish literature, and hopefully visit Spain in the next couple of years. I’m not trying to learn to converse in a Mexican dialect. Nothing against Mexico, but my intentions lie elsewhere.
Depends on who is paying the bill. Off hand you sound like an immature self-centered parasite. But that's just me.
You think it's the taxpayers' duty to teach you fencing? Gimme a break.
Where are you getting this absurd notion that those who take advantage of the community college system are on the dole? Courses here in Texas go for anywhere between $150 and $300 per credit hour.
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