[Arthur Wildfire! March]

I wouldn’t expect a cameraman to tust what he saw after the Feds and their operatives verbally work him over. We’ve seen this kind of game time and again, haven’t we? I didn’t want to mention any other instances, but you are right, TWA 800 is an excellent example of how they try to make people confused.

How did that go again? The computer simulator had TWA 800 falling up? They tried to blame it on the wiring and lobbied to have all the planes rewired [would have ruined every jet and caused real accidents] until the airlines gave the politicians sweeteners. [fuzzy memory alert]

[Sto Zvirat]

So, you think the feds “got to” the cameraman?

Proof?

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

I repeat: “Feds and their operatives verbally work him over.”. Not exactly “got to”. People can be manipulated even via television — feeling isolated, etc.

[Finny]

You know, as much as Kopp tries to make it LOOK like the Leyvas was "unsure," Leyvas' actual words reveal somebody who's pretty sure that he saw something highly unusual, and in So Cal skies, an eastbound airliner leaving a dramatic contrail is as everyday as McDonald's. In any case, the VIDEO is the only true and indisputable evidence, not Leyvas' word, and sure as hell not some hobby photographer in Long Beach with a bunch of unverifiable photos. The video Leyvas shot tells you everything you need to know because of the angle of the setting sun. It reveals a vertical plume arcing northwest -- among other things.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of people who've seen missile launches and who've weighed in on virtually every online forum, from YouTube to LA Times to FR to the San Fran Chronicle, state immediately and confidently: the video looks like the missile launches they've seen.

The majority of FReepers who think it was a contrail have never seen a missile launch (ask them -- I have), but -- like every cognizant American with decent eyesight -- have seen lots of airline contrails that, when frozen in a still photos, LOOK like pictures they've seen of missile plumes. They are flattered (or flatter themselves) that a) they are being calm and reasonable, and that b) they are smarter than the average bear, including that poor dumb bastard cameraman who coudn't even tell the dif between a common airline contrail and a missile plume. Their condensation trail conclusion, built on all kinds of pretend things including an imaginary "optical illusion" involving the curvature of the earth, is ENTIRELY SELF GRATIFYING on three counts: they get to think they're smarter, they get to think they're calmer, and they get to think they're safer.

And those of us who've lived in close range to frequent missile launches laugh at people who "reasonalby" point out as proof, "Well, if it was a missile launch, why didn't anybody hear a sonic boom, huh? That's proof right there that it must have been an airliner!" *sigh* In my 53 years, I've seen many dozens of missile launches, with the naked eye and with binoculars, from distances ranging from 19 miles to 160 miles, not including a shuttle launch in Florida at a distance I estimate of 10 to 12 miles. And do you know, in ALL of those launches, I never once heard a sonic boom. See, those of us who've seen missile launches are a lot harder to fool than those who haven't, especially those who haven't who ALSO think they're the smartest guys in the room and everybody else is pretty stupid.

As for Leyvas supposedly being "unsure," if he had claimed to be "sure" of what it was, red flags should have gone up all around. OF COURSE HE'S NOT SURE WHAT IT WAS! He'd be lying if said he was, just like these contrail folks are lying when they say they're sure it was an eastbound airliner. I'm only 99.9 percent sure it was a missile, myself, and come to that conclusion by elimination of other possibilities. But back to how "unsure" Leyvas was -- I'll bet there are several things Leyvas is sure it wasn't, though nobody put the question to him that way. I venture to say he was 99 percent sure it wasn't a commercial jet heading east, a common occurance that the guy sees probably a dozen times in any working day.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

I wouldn’t expect a cameraman to tust what he saw after the Feds and their operatives verbally work him over.

I specifically asked Leyvas if the government told him not to talk about it. He said the government didn't tell him what he could or could not say, one way or the other. he was quite open and frank throughout our correspondence. He didn't have to return my first call, and did so on his own.

Furthermore, the government did not "seize" KCBS's raw video or his copy of it, and did not forbid them from showing it. If they were trying to cover up the video, Leyvas wouldn't still have access to his copy of it.

If .gov are trying to "cover up" the missile theory, they are being awful complacent about it.

KCBS has access the raw, uncut video, and they could release it if they wanted to. But that would show how they manipulated the video for sweeps weeks ratings.