Atheists' Billboard Calls Nativity a 'Myth'

Fox ^ | 11/29/10

[Borges]

A group called the American Atheists has paid for a huge billboard on Route 495 outside the Lincoln Tunnel in North Bergen, N.J., that is raising some eyebrows.

The billboard shows a silhouette of the Three Wise Men approaching the Nativity, with the words: "You KNOW it's a Myth / This Season, Celebrate REASON!"

[AppyPappy]

“Atheists’ Billboard Calls Nativity a ‘Myth’ “

It would be a whole lot easier to discuss these things with atheists if they were intelligent. But I think the intelligent ones are quiet about it.

How are they going to prove that the Nativity is a myth? Duh.

[samiam1972]

The Catholic League put up a billboard in response. It says, “You Know It’s Real: This Season Celebrate Jesus.”

[ZAROVE]

Sons of Dark Skies, its simple. I have taken the time to study most of the worlds Major Religions, including Islam, own two English copies of the Koran (though I seem to have misplaced one), and have read it.

It is as impossible for me to think that Islam worships a different god as it is for me to believe the usual Atheist argument that Christianity emerged from Pagan Mystery Religions.

Islam emerged from the Arian Heresy. Arius taught hat Jesus was not God, but the first created being. Jesus was the most powerful being God had created, and the first Creation of God, but not God himself.

Arianism had been spread across Arabia, and over time altered somewhat. Some taught that Jesus was Michael the Archangel for instance, while others took to thinking Jesus was simply Prophet and Messiah but not even a powerful being. All of this before Muhammad. These ideas were common in the same area he lived in, too. Muhammad simply picked up the pre-existing Theological claims, and of course the Bible Stories being Told, and like Joseph Smith adapted his Theology along personal beliefs, personal desires, and his own Theological Conclusions. But you can still Trace Islam back through Arianism back to the original Christians.

Also, the Koran is chalked full of references to Biblical Narratives and stories that would have been commonly told at the time of Muhammad. The Koran is about 30% Biblical allusion.

Granted, Muhammad changed some of the stories, but often these Changes benefited himself or his people, the Arabs. EG, when he retells the Story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice one of his Sons, he makes it Ishmael rather than Issac in order to bring the ishmaelite, thus the Arabs who descend form Ishmael, to prominence.

Its fairly obvious that most of the Material in the Koran is based upon the Bible, or stories told of the Bible. Further, even the Sura’s which make nor reference to the Biblical texts will often make references to ideas that can be drawn from them or that were commonly held. It can thus be safely concluded that the Koran was developed in a Culture saturated with Biblical Stories and recounting of other Legends related to them, and that Muhammad simply adapted these.

In that way I liken Islam to Mormonism. Smith did not really create his Religion whole cloth, he simply took pre-existing material, rearranged it, and invented new Theological understanding for some of it to replace parts he did not like or somehow disagreed with.

Still, Mormons use the Bible and its fairly obvious that the King James Bible inspired the writing style of the English Book of Mormon, and even large segments of Doctrine and Covenants, and is the basis of the Pearl of Great price.

While I do not accept either Muhammad or Joseph Smith as actual Prophets, its obvious their Religions were developed out of pre-existing Christian thoughts then common at the times they were developed.

[ZAROVE]

To Continue on this other post. Do you mean that your assumption is "widely" accepted? If so, why do you assume wide acceptance means that it is indeed true? And where did such an idea come from, eh? As I said above, its obvious to anyone who has read the Koran that it is largely based on the Bible, and Legends surrounding Biblical Figures. Islam clearly emerged from an early Christian Context, though form without. Abrahamic faith means nothing more than the notion that Islam "mentions" it is somehow traceable back to Abraham...that does hold much significance anyway and NONE at all if the "prophet" and "his" god are lying. But, we can prove it was clearly developed from pre-existing ideas from obviously Christian and even Jewish sources. This does link it to Christianity and Judaism. BTW, this idea that Islam is an Abrahamic faith is pushed primarily by muslims...and it is done so to first subsume the True Abrahamic faith and secondly it is done to garner credibility among those in the world who do not recognize it (Islam) for the demonic faith it truly is (again "know them by their fruits" - Matthew 7:16). Actually anyone whose read the Koran will see its clearly an Abrahamic Faith. Its called this by anyone who has studied it, too, not just Muslims. You said... I always had a problem with people who insist that Islam worships a different god as most of the arguments are silly. First, it isn't about you and "silly" doesn't explain why you disagree with the "different god" idea. I did offer more than “its Silly”. I’ve offered more now. In fact, the term "silly" says more about you. It says you stand in judgment of your debating opponent but rather than respond with reason, you condescend to call him "silly." I called the argument silly, not a person. Secondly, muslims will tell you in no uncertain terms that their Allah is not Jehovah, God of the Christians and Jews. No they won’t. Muslims do not claim that their god is different form that of Christians and Jews. Mainly Certain groups of Christians make this claim, not Muslims. Now, as to "false prophets"...they are not nice but misguided leaders! False prophets are agents of a false god...and anti-God, anti-Christ! This is spurious reasoning. A False Prophet is simply someone who is claiming to be a Prophet but who really isn’t. While one can make the elongated argument that all False Prophets in the end serve Satan, most do not directly serve him. Most do not know fully they serve Satan and go about to intentionally deceive in his name. Many don’t even believe in God. Many are just out to accumulate power for themselves. Some are simply honest but confused. For example, what if Muhammad was simply mentally ill? Schizophrenic maybe? In this case he’d not really be serving Satan, he’d only be ill. "False prophets" are mentioned 7 times in the New Testament (not at all in the Old). In each case they are anti-God, attempting to draw people away from God and into Hell. Be that as it may, they will still usually refer to the same God, they will simply not have the True Message of God. The question is "who" do you believe they are leading people to? And whose voice are they listening to? That depends on who they are. Muhammad lived far too long ago and we do not have that many records of him so, it is impossible t tell exactly. Mohammed himself first thought the voice he heard in the cave when he received the prophecy was a "demon." It wasn't until he told his wife that he was hearing demons and going mad that she, Khadijah, convinced him he was hearing the voice of Gabriel. Which proves what? Lastly, let me point out strongly that God loves muslims and Jesus/Yeshuah offers them Salvation if they will accept It and Him. On this I agree. But make no mistake about it, Allah and his prophet, Mohammed, are completely oppose to God, Jehovah, and His Son, Yeshuah/Jesus. I hate it when this comes up. For one thing, why do you think the Muslim gods name is Allah? Its not like Muslims will tell you they worship the god Allah. Allah is not a name, it is simply “The God” in Arabic. By the way, Christians and Jews pray to Allah if they speak Arabic, and many English Speaking Muslims prefer to use the word “God” rather than Allah. That said, Muslims are not Completely Opposed, and many are receptive. Get to know some muslims. Yes, they are not bad people and some do much good (the True God loves them)...but to the extent they follow their religion and its god, Allah, they are following a force that is diametrically opposed to the Judeo/Christian God. Again, saying “its god, Allah” is a redundancy. Your saying “Its god, the God”. Allah is not a name, Allah is not the name of the Muslim god as opposed to our God. This statement is just daft nonsense.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

It is as impossible for me to think that Islam worships a different god

ZAROVE...I can see that is impossible for you. I simply ask why...what is your logic?

I don't need a long littany of information on the nature of religion, just a simple answer.

Either logic or Scripture will suffice!

You are making a major leap with your statement. Surely you have a rational, empirical, logical framework on which such a leap of faith rests?

BTW, as I said earlier, your belief is NOT SHARED by members of the islamic faith. I know muslims...they seem quite decent. They read the Koran in Arabic.

They do no believe Allah and Jehovah are the same deity (and they say this is the common understanding of all muslims, however much some will occasionally say otherwise to infidels).

As an additional point, my niece had a roommate in college who was a nice muslim girl. She quite politely said that muslims believe in a different god. No great fanfare...just a different god.

Who to believe? You...or those who practice the muslim faith.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

I can't really read such a massive statement without paragraphs, but I did pick out this...

A False Prophet is simply someone who is claiming to be a Prophet but who really isn’t.

No, not in the New Testament and not to a Christian. That said, it has a different meaning colloquially, but then we aren't speaking colloquially...we are speaking about something very specific as it pertains to faith.

As I said, false prophet in Christianity is a defined term, a legal term, if you wish. Its usage gives it a precise meaning.

If you need Scriptural citations, I will be happy to provide them.

[EyeGuy]

Excellent post. Thanks.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

From what you have written, it seems to me that you are a muslim...and I have no problem with that.

[ZAROVE]

I’m actually a Christian.

I have simply read up on Islam.

[ZAROVE]

I have read the New testament, but as I said, the False Prophet may ultimately work for Satan, but seldom do they see themselves as such.

To me its more likely that Muhammad had some sort of mental disturbance, and, in some ways, simply wanted to create his own Theology that worked for him as he didn’t udnerstand Christianity to make sense. combine those and you get the Genesis of Islam.

Later he added elements that benefited himself.

By the way, how does describing Muhammad as a False Prophet who wrote parts of the Koran base don personal gain or on catering to his people make me seem like a Muslim?

[Lakeshark]

That’s very good, where did you get that?

[dfwgator]

Funny thing. Some folks don't trust science until they need a heart transplant, knee replacement or cancer treatment. Then when their lives are saved by science, instead of thanking the doctors, chemists, and the thousands of other highly trained people who contributed to their healing, they thank God

There came a big flood, and the water around Bhola's house was rising steadily..

Bhola was standing on the porch, watching water rising all around him, when a man in a boat came along and called to Bhola, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here. Bhola replied, "No thanks, God will save me."

Bhola went into the house, and the water was starting to pour in. So, he went up to the second floor.

As he looked out, another man in a boat came along, and he called to Bhola, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here."

Again, Bhola replied, "No thanks. God will save me."

The water kept rising. So, Bhola got out onto the roof.

A helicopter flew over, and the pilot called down to Bhola, "I'll drop you a rope,grab onto it, and I'll get you out of here."

Again Bhola replied, "No thanks. God will save me."

The water rose and rose, and soon nearly covered the whole house. Bhola fell in, and drowned.

When he arrived in Heaven, he saw God, and asked Him, "Why didn't you save me from that terrible flood? Did I not show you my faith?"

With a loving but irritated tone God replied, "What more would you have me do? I sent people in two boats and a helicopter?"

[SonOfDarkSkies]

the False Prophet may ultimately work for Satan, but seldom do they see themselves as such.

I agree that they work for Satan and perhaps some do not realize it.

Muhammad had some sort of mental disturbance

Again, I agree...though possession and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.

Later he added elements that benefited himself.

Yes. But he also built a "religion" that was more than just a flash in the pan and that would be difficult without some kind of divine or anti-divine inspiration or direction.

For example, Islam is a kind of anti-Christianity. Where Christianity is meek, Islam is bold. Where Christianity is forgiving, Islam seeks vengeance. Where Christianity spreads (or at least is meant to be spread) by changing hearts, Islam is spread the the sword. Where Christianity requires devotion only by love (i.e. choice), Islam demands submission (despite the "non-compulsion" clause of 2:256).

I don't think for a moment that Mohammed understood Christianity or how reality would evolve over time well enough to design such a "religion" without supernatural help (of the fallen kind).

We must apparently agree to disagree, but it is rather clear to me that Islam has a god-force that drives it...and that force is the perverse mirror image of the force behind Judeo/Christianity.

Again, I feel that it is important to any Muslims who may be lurking that I remind them they are not to blame for the evils of Islam. God loves them and Jesus went to the Cross for them just as he did for you and me. It is difficult to be born to a "religion" and way of life only to find out you are on the wrong path.

That said, even those of us born in a Christian community still had to come to grips with our sinful natures and that we were still on the wrong path until we gave our lives to God (the Real God).

Gotta run for the rest of the day...thx for the discussion!

[ZAROVE]

SODK- ZAROVE...I can see that is impossible for you. I simply ask why...what is your logic? I gave my Logic already. Perhaps the post was too long for you? I don't need a long littany of information on the nature of religion, just a simple answer. Either logic or Scripture will suffice! OK. Islam emerged from a context that was entirely Christian but influenced by Arianism. The Koran itself clearly retells Biblical stories and obviously is linked to and dependant upon them. Ergo, it is the same God. BTW, as I said earlier, your belief is NOT SHARED by members of the islamic faith. I know muslims...they seem quite decent. They read the Koran in Arabic. They do no believe Allah and Jehovah are the same deity (and they say this is the common understanding of all muslims, however much some will occasionally say otherwise to infidels). I don’t believe you. For oen thing, Muslism donot consider Allah the name oftheir god. Its not like they talk about their god Allah, only westerners hwo don’t understand Islam think Allah is the name of the god in Islam. It means “The God” in Arabic. A Muslim who reads the Koran in Arabic would not find the Arabic equipollent of “The god Allah” in the Koran. Conversely, English Translations do not use the term either. Further, I know Muslims myself, and they have said it’s the same God. You an also look this up online on any Islamic website. So, I have strong evidence that you are being less than Truthful. As an additional point, my niece had a roommate in college who was a nice muslim girl. She quite politely said that muslims believe in a different god. No great fanfare...just a different god. Who to believe? You...or those who practice the muslim faith. Both. I can post links if you’d like to Muslim Chat Rooms, discussion boards, and websites. In fact, I will. Here, http://www.islamicity.com/ And here, http://www.islamicity.com/bazar/action.lasso.asp?PageCurrent=12&-db=Bazaar&-lay=Product&-format=detail.asp&-op=eq&Buy_Flag=X&-op=eq&type=books&-Max=1&-sortorder=descending&-sortfield=feature&-find And here, http://www.islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandmuslims/default.asp?ContentLocation=/Education/UnderstandingIslamAndMuslims&CurrentPageID=7&Top=&Bottom=&Right=&Left=&SideBarWidth=&RightWidth=&LeftWidth=&SideBarLocation=&Style=&CatID=&Destination=/Education/UnderstandingIslamAndMuslims/7.asp This site confirm that the Muslims do, indeed, worship the same God as Christians and Jews, which should be obvious since they claim Abraham as theirs as well, and say they worship the God of Abraham. Unless you claim Abraham worshipped two different gods, you are forced to conclude they worship the same God. There are other websites with the same information.

[Pan_Yan]

Same place I get most good stuff ... another FReeper posted it first.

[ZAROVE]

I write my post in a word processor, then cut and paste them, For some reason it seems it snow crushing them into a single paragraph, even though this is not how I wrote them.

Odd.

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

No. Sorry. That little story has been trotted out many times before. You can say that God sent the boat or the doctor or whatever but you can’t prove it. And if you are going to give God credit for saving lives, you have to give him the blame when he doesn’t save lives.

For example the bubonic plague in the middle ages killed about 60 million people. They cried out to God, begged him for respite, did penance, but suffered and died in agony as if they were no more important than flies. Whole families were wiped off the face of the earth. There were not enough living to bury the dead. Charity died and the authority of religious institutions was greatly lessened because they could do nothing to stop the death and suffering. In fact the powerlessness of religious institutions against the massive death and suffering of the Black Death set the stage for the Enlightenment. People started to question religion and started living for themselves and not for some some promised far off pie in the sky called heaven.

Where was God then? Nowhere! It was only centuries later that science figured out that decent sanitation was the way to prevent or lessen such massive death and suffering. Oh you can say that God inspired the scientists to find answers to the problem of the Black Plague but my question is why did he wait until 60 million people died? People who were begging him for respite! And don’t blame the suffering on the Devil. There is no Devil and if there was, if God will not destroy him then he is not God. If God cannot destroy him then he is not God.

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"Our job here on Earth, IMO, is to strive for an eternal home in Heaven, where we will live free of pain and sickness, not to question God’s way."

Sorry, it really gets me how the authors of the bible are always saying, don't try to understand God, just believe. Because if you don't believe, God will have to let terrible stuff happen to you either in this life or the next or both. So we have to be scared into belief with threat of hell. Or we have to be bribed into belief with promises of heaven.

God sounds all too human to me. Making threats, promises, getting mad, punishing, rewarding, changing his mind, even getting jealous.

[ZAROVE]

SODS "Muhammad had some sort of mental disturbance" Again, I agree...though possession and mental illness are not mutually exclusive. I only said perhaps, and you have no evidence he was demon possessed. "Later he added elements that benefited himself." Yes. But he also built a "religion" that was more than just a flash in the pan and that would be difficult without some kind of divine or anti-divine inspiration or direction. The Enlightenment did the same thing, so did Joseph Smith. I don’t think an appeal to Demonic Forces is needed to explain this. For example, Islam is a kind of anti-Christianity. Where Christianity is meek, Islam is bold. Where Christianity is forgiving, Islam seeks vengeance. Where Christianity spreads (or at least is meant to be spread) by changing hearts, Islam is spread the the sword. Where Christianity requires devotion only by love (i.e. choice), Islam demands submission (despite the "non-compulsion" clause of 2:256). Actually the above is more evidence of Caricature than reality. Whole Islam is strikingly different from Christianity in many ways, the Koran itself also venerates Meekness, and even the New Testament shows Jesus being Bold at times. Also, your contrast between Christianity requiring devotion by Love as opposed to Islam which requires Submission is base don a false perception. Christianity is base don Submission as well, and it’s the same Submission one finds in Islam. I know you are trying to conjure images of people being forced into Islam and compelled to worship its evil god Allah and all but, the Submission actual Muslims speak of it simply the Submission to Gods will. Its no different in Christianity, in which we are told to Submit to the Will of God and submit to Jesus as our King and Lord of our Salvation. In that way, Islam is certainly not an Anti-Christianity since they teach basically the same thing, except that Islam would not place Jesus in the role of God. It seems to me that you are simply repeating the standard Neo-Con Information about Islam, not looking anything up about it from its own Primary Sources, and presenting a slanted and inaccurate view. I don't think for a moment that Mohammed understood Christianity or how reality would evolve over time well enough to design such a "religion" without supernatural help (of the fallen kind). But you also haven’t studied Islam at all and know nothing about it, so on what do you base this assertion? We must apparently agree to disagree, but it is rather clear to me that Islam has a god-force that drives it...and that force is the perverse mirror image of the force behind Judeo/Christianity. Bit, your statement that Islam is a sort of Anti-Christianity is base don a false analysis that is easy to overturn. What does this suggest about your conclusion? Your just trying to continue the image of Islam as a purely evil force, to conform to a predetermined Prejudice, and allowing that to cloud your reasoning. Again, I feel that it is important to any Muslims who may be lurking that I remind them they are not to blame for the evils of Islam. God loves them and Jesus went to the Cross for them just as he did for you and me. It is difficult to be born to a "religion" and way of life only to find out you are on the wrong path. They can say the same of you. However, why should a Muslim convert to Christianity after your insincere claims to love them? Why would lying about Islam and what it actually is, all based upon a personal emotional need to vindicate a predetermined prejudice, really win them over? That’s one of the biggest reasons I really don’t like these Anti-Islamic claims, because they are lies and just make Christians look foolish, indicated, and hostile to the average Muslim. They do not improve anything. That said, even those of us born in a Christian community still had to come to grips with our sinful natures and that we were still on the wrong path until we gave our lives to God (the Real God). Islam also follows the real God, for it’s the same Go as Christians and Jesus worship. They, like the Jews, are simply mistaken in some things concerning who and what God is. That said, not all Christians even accept Sinful Nature. I grew up in the Churches of Christ, for example. (No no the United Churches of Christ, just the Churches of Christ.) The Churches of Christ do not teach that we have a Sinful Nature, though we all do sin.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

Islam emerged from a context that was entirely Christian but influenced by Arianism. The Koran itself clearly retells Biblical stories and obviously is linked to and dependant upon them. Ergo, it is the same God.

Ignoratio elenchi!

The fact that the Koran retells Biblical stories is irrelevant since the ultimate (read: operative) edicts given in the Koran are in opposition to the original meaning of those stories.

On the other hand, the retelling of Bible stories works quite well if the goal the subsumation of Judeo/Christianity so as to make the same fallacious statement you are making, viz. Allah is Jehovah.