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Conservatives vs. liberals: Before you indoctrinate your kids, read this
CS Monitor ^ | 11/29/10 | Michael Laser

Posted on 11/30/2010 8:30:25 AM PST by ZGuy

Without intending to, I've indoctrinated my kids.

Lately, I've found myself in the odd position of explaining and even justifying the conservative point of view.

If you shut out the noise, you can find persuasive arguments on both sides of the divide. Here are a few that I came up with:

On the social safety net

The conservative view

• People are responsible for themselves – and, given the chance, they're capable of supporting themselves and their families. If the government makes a practice of providing for people (with welfare, for example), they become dependent and lose their will to work. Nothing could be more destructive to the health of our society.

The liberal view

• There are people in this country who struggle to put food on the table or can't afford medical care. A civilized society would try to help them, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. (Someday, the one who needs a helping hand may be you, or someone you love.)

On taxes

The liberal view

• We aren't isolated individuals struggling for survival: We live together, in a society. And membership in a society that makes wealth possible comes with obligations. Those who benefit most from our freedoms must contribute their fair share to help support and protect our society.

The conservative view

• Private property means that what belongs to you is yours; if the government confiscates it, that's tyranny. Our most productive citizens – the top 10 percent of earners – already pay 68 percent of taxes collected. These rates should be cut, not raised.

[continues with]

On the role of government

On overcoming racial discrimination

On human nature and justice

On America's future

On ideals

(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: communismkills; conservatism; education; leftvsright; liberalism; socialism
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1 posted on 11/30/2010 8:30:29 AM PST by ZGuy
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To: ZGuy
Government is NOT society.
2 posted on 11/30/2010 8:34:27 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: ZGuy
On the social safety net

The liberal view

There are people in this country who struggle to put food on the table or can't afford medical care. A civilized society would try to help them, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. (Someday, the one who needs a helping hand may be you, or someone you love.)

The liberal view has expanded this safety net to include ALL families (national healthcare's goal is to prohibit private medical insurance, they say that this sets up a two-tiered system, those who can pay and those who cannot, with lesser quality service and lesser coverage (especially at end of life or major medical surgery) for those on the government plan).

The private sector used to provide charitable contribution to those without. Donations drop as government mandates that you MUST tithe to them so that THEY can apportion the donations as they see fit.

The same government that provides your daily sustenance can withhold it or put controls on your personal liberty to continue getting what was promised to you.

3 posted on 11/30/2010 8:35:39 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: ZGuy
Ronald Reagan speaks from beyond the grave to denounce Socialized Medicine:

Back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.

There are many ways in which our government has invaded the precincts of private citizens, method of earning a living; our government is in business to the extent of owning more than 19,000 businesses covering 47 different lines of activity. This amounts to a fifth of the total industrial capacity of the United States.

But at the moment I would like to talk about another way because this threat is with us, and at the moment, is more imminent.

One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine.

It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project, most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.

Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it. We had an example of this. Under the Truman administration it was proposed that we have a compulsory health insurance program for all people in the United States, and, of course, the American people unhesitatingly rejected this.

So with the American people on record as not wanting socialized medicine, Congressman Ferrand introduced the Ferrand bill. This was the idea that all people of Social Security age, should be brought under a program of compulsory health insurance. Now this would not only be our senior citizens, this would be the dependents and those that are disabled, this would be young people if they are dependents of someone eligible for social security.

Now , Congressman Ferrand, brought the program out on that idea out , on just for that particular group of people. But Congressman Ferrand was subscribing to this foot-in-the door philosophy, because he said, “If we can only break through and get our foot inside the door, then we can expand the program after that.

Walter Ruther said, “It’s no secret that the United Automobile Workers is officially on record of backing a program of national health insurance. And by national health insurance, he meant socialized medicine for every American.

Well, let us see what the socialists themselves have to say about it. They say once the Ferrand bill is passed this nation will be provided with a mechanism for socialized medicine capable of indefinite expansion in every direction until it includes the entire population. Now we can’t say we haven’t been warned.

Now Congressman Ferrand is no longer a Congressman of the United States government. He has been replaced, not in his particular assignment, but in his backing of such a bill by Congressman King of California. It is presented in the idea of a great emergency that millions of our senior citizens are unable to provide needed medical care. But this ignores that fact that in the last decade, 127 million of our citizens, in just 10 years, have come under the protection of some form of privately owned medical or hospital insurance.

Now the advocates of this bill when you try to oppose it challenge you on an emotional basis. They say, "What would you do? Throw these poor people out to die with no medical attention?”

That’s ridiculous and of course no one is advocating it. As a matter of fact, in the last session of Congress a bill was adopted known as the Kerr/Mills bill. Now without even allowing this bill to be tried to see if it works, they have introduced this King bill, which is really the Ferrand bill.

What is the Kerr/Mills bill? It is a frank recognition of the medical need or problem of the senior citizens I have mentioned and it has provided from the federal government, money to the states and the local communities that can be used at the discretion of the state to help those people who need it.

Now what reason could the other people have for backing a bill which says we insist on compulsory health insurance for senior citizens on a basis of age alone regardless of whether they are worth millions of dollars, whether they have an income, whether they are protected by their own insurance, whether they have savings.

I think we can be excused for believing that as ex-congressman Ferrand said, this was simply an excuse to bring about what they wanted all the time -- socialized medicine.

James Madison in 1788 speaking to the Virginia convention said, “Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”

They want to attach this bill to Social Security and they say here is a great insurance program; now instituted, now working.

Let’s take a look at Social Security itself. Again, very few of us disagree with the original premise that there should be some form of savings that would keep destitution from following unemployment by reason of death, disability or old age. And to this end, Social Security was adopted, but it was never intended to supplant private savings, private insurance, pension programs of unions and industries.

Now in our country under our free-enterprise system we have seen medicine reach the greatest heights that it has in any country in the world. Today, the relationship between patient and doctor in this country is something to be envied any place. The privacy, the care that is given to a person, the right to chose a doctor, the right to go from one doctor to the other.

But let’s also look from the other side. The freedom the doctor uses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. The doctor begins to lose freedoms, it’s like telling a lie. One leads to another. First you decide the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government, but then the doctors are equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him he can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

This is a freedom that I wonder if any of us has a right to take from any human being. I know how I’d feel if you my fellow citizens, decided that to be an actor I had to be a government employee and work in a national theater. Take it into your own occupation or that of your husband. All of us can see what happens once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it's a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your son won’t decide when he’s in school where he will go or what he will do for a living. He will wait for the government to tell him where he will go to work and what he will do.

In this country of ours, took place the greatest revolution that has ever taken place in the world’s history; the only true revolution. Every other revolution simply exchanged one set of rulers for another. But here, for the first time in all the thousands of years of man’s relations to man, a little group of men, the founding fathers, for the first time, established the idea that you and I had within ourselves the God given right and ability to determine our own destiny. This freedom was built into our government with safeguards. We talk democracy today, and strangely, we let democracy begin to assume the aspect of majority rule is all that is needed. The “majority rule” is a fine aspect of democracy provided there are guarantees written in to our government concerning the rights of the individual and of the minorities.

What can we do about this? Well, you and I can do a great deal. We can write to our congressmen and to our senators. We can say right now that we want no further encroachment on these individual liberties and freedoms. And at the moment, the key issue is, we do not want socialized medicine.

In Washington today, 40 thousand letters, less than 100 per congressman are evidence of a trend in public thinking.

Representative Hallock of Indiana has said, “When the American people wants something from Congress, regardless of its political complexion, if they make their wants known, Congress does what the people want."

So write, and if this man writes back to you and tells you that he too is for free enterprise, that we have these great services and so forth, that must be performed by government, don’t let him get away with it.

Show that you have not been convinced. Write a letter right back and tell him that you believe government economy and fiscal responsibility, that you know governments don’t tax to get the money they need; governments will always find a need for the money they get and that you demand the continuation of our free enterprise system.

You and I can do this. The only way we can do it is by writing to our congressmen even we believe that he's on our side to begin with. Write to strengthen his hand. Give him the ability to stand before his colleagues in Congress and say that he has heard from my constituents and this is what they want. Write those letters now call your friends and them to write.

If you don’t, this program I promise you, will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until one day as Normal Thomas said we will wake to find that we have socialism, and if you don’t do this and I don’t do this, one of these days we are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.


4 posted on 11/30/2010 8:36:50 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: ZGuy
"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society.

As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. ... We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on.

It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting people to eat because we do not want the state to raise the grain."

-- Frédéric Bastiat, The Law, 1849
5 posted on 11/30/2010 8:37:38 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: ZGuy

Leftists do not have ANY good arguments. Absolutely everything they support is insane, stupid, and/or evil.

These ‘things’ are not fellow citizens but a humanoid disease which needs to be purged.


6 posted on 11/30/2010 8:38:57 AM PST by Soothesayer (“None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license...")
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To: ZGuy

Fortunately for the author of this drivel, the government has yet to infringe on his right to idiocy.


7 posted on 11/30/2010 8:39:14 AM PST by ConservaTexan (February 6, 1911)
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To: Soothesayer

Oh my!


8 posted on 11/30/2010 8:40:27 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: a fool in paradise

That is exactly how these idiots “think”. The number of these mindless vermin has reached a critical point. Now there is no longer any possibility of a free and productive society moving forward.


9 posted on 11/30/2010 8:41:31 AM PST by Soothesayer (“None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license...")
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To: ZGuy
FTA: If you shut out the noise, you can find persuasive arguments on both sides of the divide.

The arguments on the liberal side of the divide are generally appeals to emotion and not rooted in facts or logic. For this reason, they cannot stand. They also shouldn't be persuasive if you have a sound set of principles and a proper understanding of how and why this country was founded in its basic documents.

10 posted on 11/30/2010 8:41:50 AM PST by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: ZGuy

The confiscation of wealth and wages deprives the citizens a chance to support the businesses and charities of their choice.


11 posted on 11/30/2010 8:43:54 AM PST by misterrob (Thug Life....now showing at a White House near you....)
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To: ZGuy

On the social safety net

The liberal view

• There are people in this country who struggle to put food on the table or can’t afford medical care. A civilized society would try to help them, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. (Someday, the one who needs a helping hand may be you, or someone you love.)

This is where churches and charities, family and friends come in. It’s not the governments job to take money form one person and give it to another. This is also about personal responsibility where if you can’t provide for yourself don’t bring kids into the world and have them suffer as well.

On taxes

The liberal view

• We aren’t isolated individuals struggling for survival: We live together, in a society. And membership in a society that makes wealth possible comes with obligations. Those who benefit most from our freedoms must contribute their fair share to help support and protect our society.

Those who benefit most EARNED IT. Those who struggle sometimes bring it upon themselves and some don’t. Those who are truly in need refer to churches & charities or family & friends, not government. We’re all born equal, what you do with that equality is up to you.


12 posted on 11/30/2010 8:47:36 AM PST by maddog55 (OBAMA, You can't fix stupid...)
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To: maddog55

13 posted on 11/30/2010 8:50:00 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: T-Bird45

Greed (coveting thy neighbor’s ass) and Theft are against the 10 commandments

Makes it funny to see Barack Obama trying to take the high road and tell us that Christians are instructed to “be thy brother’s keeper” (wasn’t Jesus who said that and Barry treats his half-brother horribly). He also said that we have an obligation (must tithe) to see that all Americans (even the illegal ones) have “adequate” healthcare coverage.

(A) I cannot be required to tithe to his over branch of Christianity, that does not meet the merit of persuasive debate under our Constitutional form of government which recognized a separation of the powers of church and state.

(B) his own class envy and forced forfeiture of private wealth and property is a violation of the religious beliefs he claims to hold (he lies, he is not a Christian, he’s agnostic like mama).


14 posted on 11/30/2010 8:51:35 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: Soothesayer

Hmm.. what I see here is alot of “personal responsibility/actions” vs. “Feel-good feelings”


15 posted on 11/30/2010 8:54:25 AM PST by Svartalfiar
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To: ZGuy
On the environment

the Conservative View:
The environment is the home in which we all live. It will provide for us and give us resources with which to improve our lives and the lives and living conditions of others. We must make wise use of the resources while protecting what we have.

the Liberal View:
The environment is a wonderful tool with which to push the Marxist agenda of controlling all human activity. Just as we learned to use the race card to squelch any view we don't agree with, we can use the environment to stop any and all attempts by those who want to wander too far from controlled urban containment.

Once we control air, land and water we can control everything including food and mobility.

16 posted on 11/30/2010 8:58:53 AM PST by Baynative (on to 2012)
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To: ZGuy
The "liberal view" are all canards from 75 years ago.

They are WAY past that now.

17 posted on 11/30/2010 9:01:02 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Baynative

As to Gulf drilling, that oil will naturally seap from the ocean floor even if we do nothing (no consumption, no pumping). The Left doesn’t even want us to remove it to place it someplace where it might do less harm.

And they don’t push for embargos against the other nations pumping Gulf region oil (rigs we have no oversight on which are just as likely to cause environmental damage).

So it isn’t about people getting oil out of the ground vs. leaving it there. It is about US/U.S. getting and using that oil.

We are told that we consume too great a share of the world’s resources, yet we are prohibited by liberal law from using our own national resources and those off of our coasts.


18 posted on 11/30/2010 9:03:06 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: Baynative

In short socialists lie and liberalism is just “progressive encroachment socialism”.


19 posted on 11/30/2010 9:03:49 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: Baynative

I can sum up some peoples’ perspective of the conservative stance as “conservatives are mean” (want to keep what’s theirs, don’t want to be forced to share, don’t want to be forced to like everyone).

“Mean” maybe but so are liberals, just watch when someone in a political demographic chooses the wrong party. You will hear every racist and misogynist term used to browbeat the “turncoat”/”racetraitor”. Identity politics only matters when it serves “THE” (Communist) Party.

Because... socialists lie. Always.


20 posted on 11/30/2010 9:07:00 AM PST by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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