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Irregular warfare offers new role for propeller driven aircraft
Flight International ^ | 26/10/10 | Stephen Trimble

Posted on 10/25/2010 9:06:30 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki

Irregular warfare offers new role for propeller driven aircraft

By Stephen Trimble

Bringing back the propeller-driven fighter in the age of counterinsurgency may seem to some a belated no-brainer or to others a wasteful diversion with potentially suicidal risk to the pilot.

As late as early 2008, the leadership of the US Air Force sided firmly with the sceptics. Lt Gen Donald Hoffman, then the USAF's top-ranking acquisition official, implied to a group of reporters in April of that year that the idea of deploying propeller-driven aircraft in modern combat is too risky.

"We can rebuild the [North American] P-51 - great airplane," said Hoffman, citing the propeller-driven Second World War fighter. Then, however, the former Lockheed Martin F-16 pilot pointed at each of the journalists. "All we need is you, you, you and you to go fly it into the threat zone," he said.

The Second World War P-51: a template for a modern-day propeller-driven fighter? Picture: Staff Sgt Jeremy Smith/US Air Force

Propeller-driven aircraft fly lower and slower than fast jets such as the F-16, and carry less cockpit armour than the "titanium bathtubs" surrounding pilots in the Fairchild A-10 or the Boeing AH-64 Apache.

It is this combination that drove the type out of the USAF inventory immediately after the Vietnam war, with the retirements of the Douglas A-1 Skyraider, the Cessna O-2 Skymaster and the de Havilland C-7 Caribou.

Paradoxically, however, the propeller-driven aircraft's ability to fly low and slow for long periods is responsible for a rebirth of enthusiasm within the USAF since shortly after Hoffman made his remarks about reintroducing the P-51.

The USAF leadership's position on the light attack mission would quickly

(Excerpt) Read more at flightglobal.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; coin; irregularwarfare; p51
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To: Yo-Yo
Updated with a turboprop engine

What's the HP rating on that? It just doesn't look right, though.

The P&W radial engines like the one in the P47 had turbosuperchargers and water injection (2,535 horsepower). Some planes designed for shooting down buzz bombs had 2800 h.p. I imagine that today we could come up with something just as good or better.

61 posted on 10/26/2010 9:24:30 AM PDT by smokingfrog (Because you don't live near a bakery doesn't mean you have to go without cheesecake.)
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To: smokingfrog
The P&W radial engines like the one in the P47 had turbosuperchargers and water injection (2,535 horsepower). Some planes designed for shooting down buzz bombs had 2800 h.p. I imagine that today we could come up with something just as good or better.

Douglas A2D Skyshark Wikipedia page

"Powerplant: 1× Allison XT-40-A-2 turboprop, 5,100 shp (3,800 kW)" And this was in 1950...

The Allison T56 Turboprop used on the C-130, P-3, E-2 and C-2 develops in the neighborhood of 4,000 HP.

T56 weighs just under 2,000 lbs, while the Wright R3350 of the A1 Skyraider produced 2,700 HP while weighing over 2,600 lbs.

62 posted on 10/26/2010 10:20:04 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Yo-Yo

My SIL works for Allison which is now part of Rolls Royce.


63 posted on 10/26/2010 10:24:37 AM PDT by nascarnation
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To: mad_as_he$$

Most native Americans are.


64 posted on 10/26/2010 10:35:22 AM PDT by Dick Bachert (The upcoming election is the most important in our lifetimes!!! BE THERE!!!!!!!)
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To: Yo-Yo
The first production A2D-1 performed its initial flight on 10 June 1953, with four more Skysharks delivered to the end of the year. Problems continued, with one of the A2D-1s crashing near Los Angeles on 5 August 1954. Some sources claim the rest of the batch of ten were completed, but they never actually flew. One of these machines still survives today -- at last notice, it was being refurbished for display by a warbirds restoration outfit in Idaho Falls, Idaho.
65 posted on 10/26/2010 10:52:42 AM PDT by smokingfrog (Because you don't live near a bakery doesn't mean you have to go without cheesecake.)
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To: flowerplough; IncPen

Interesting thanks for posting


66 posted on 10/26/2010 11:02:34 AM PDT by Nailbiter
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To: Dick Bachert

lol...True!


67 posted on 10/26/2010 11:47:59 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Playing by the rules only works if both sides do it!)
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To: Bartholomew Roberts

Yes,indeed.Big Frank Valesh was the pilot in the 100th bombgroup and my hero till this day.I work on B-17s these days and have since I was a young teenager.I got old before my time hanging out with a bunch of old curmudgeons and now I am one.Just paying it forward.LOL


68 posted on 10/26/2010 1:21:54 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: smokingfrog
. Problems continued, with one of the A2D-1s crashing near Los Angeles on 5 August 1954. Some sources claim the rest of the batch of ten were completed, but they never actually flew. One of these machines still survives today -- at last notice, it was being refurbished for display by a warbirds restoration outfit in Idaho Falls, Idaho.

"Engine development problems delayed the first flight until 26 May 1950, made at Muroc by George Jansen. Allison failed to deliver a "production" engine until 1953, and while testing an XA2D with that engine, test pilot C. G. "Doc" Livingston pulled out of a dive and was surprised by a loud noise and pitch up. His windscreen was covered with oil and the chase pilot told Livingston that the propellers were gone. The gearbox had failed. Livingston successfully landed the airplane."

Lousy counter-rotating prop gearboxes...


A2D Skyshark on static display at Idaho Falls Regional Airport.

69 posted on 10/26/2010 1:25:29 PM PDT by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: nascarnation

My brother works for RR/Allison in Indianapolis.

He has a stressful job (stress analysis).


70 posted on 10/26/2010 1:31:09 PM PDT by smokingfrog (Because you don't live near a bakery doesn't mean you have to go without cheesecake.)
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To: HANG THE EXPENSE

Depending on the source the Mustang was about $10K to $30K less or 20 to 60%, which makes sense as most machinery is almost a linear cost function to weight. One of great selling points of the Mustang was ease of manufacture and cost. Hey it 2 less guns, right?

The Thunderbolt would have been clearly a better choice, but I think that the politics may have involved money as well as other factors.


71 posted on 10/26/2010 1:32:28 PM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Interesting, but how does something this slow protect itself from shoulder fired rockets or missles? Sure kevlar/ceramic plating may protect the crew from small to medium arms fire, but a turbo prop I would think would be toast if facing any sort of mobile rocket or missle attack.

Maybe I’m wrong... but I’m having a hard time seeing the need for a turbo prop fighter.


72 posted on 10/26/2010 1:32:53 PM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: HANG THE EXPENSE
My dad was in the 493rd. There is a picture of his outfit in Martin Caidin's Flying Forts book.

Not too many Forts left but I understand there is one being rebuilt in Urbana, Ohio and one in Batavia, Ohio.

I used to belong to the Yankee Air Force in Belleville, Michigan before their big fire.

Wish I could be polishing a wing right now!

Where is your favorite Fort?

73 posted on 10/26/2010 1:38:39 PM PDT by Bartholomew Roberts
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To: Bartholomew Roberts

Dave Tallichets Memphis Belle(movie bird).Was a blast flying her back in the day.Saw the boys at Yankee a few months back.Great bunch of guys like ole Norm Ellison.


74 posted on 10/26/2010 4:41:40 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: SeeSac

They won’t survive energy weapons aimed from the stands!

I believe you missed the point.

When all else fails, after it fails- low tech wins.

Place your bet. Think Afghanistan.


75 posted on 10/26/2010 9:21:31 PM PDT by One Name
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To: SeeSac

They won’t survive energy weapons aimed from the stands!

I believe you missed the point.

When all else fails, after it fails- low tech wins.

Place your bet. Think Afghanistan.


76 posted on 10/26/2010 9:26:41 PM PDT by One Name
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To: hoagy62
I remember reading the story of a Jug pilot who was on a strafing run in Germany. He went a little low and wasn't paying attention. Before him loomed a brick wall. Unable to pull up in time, the aircraft went through the brick wall. And survived. And flew him home.

Strafing runs in Holland were often referred to as "rhubarb runs". The Jugs flew so low they mowed the rhubarb fields.

77 posted on 10/26/2010 9:53:58 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

If the bad guys are comin’ over the wire send me anything

you got,,,

If I get a choice send me Mr. Spooky,,,

Spooky 13 stayed over us till first light(5 hrs. Tet ‘68)

I’ll never forget the roar of those guns...


78 posted on 10/26/2010 10:38:38 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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