Posted on 10/06/2010 6:40:59 AM PDT by libstripper
This is all very interesting. I’m just wondering about what the dog perceives, though. Often a dog instictively knows someone is up to no good. However, in truth, no helper in a ring is up to no good. So it seems to me having the dog go off (without command, I presume) for someone tamping on her shoulders seems a bit overboard - especially when it’s just acting. Perhaps an overt threat from a distance....such as the man running at her and wielding a club in the air as to strike. I’d be afraid to be the woman’s distant aunt ready to hug the woman after her mom’s funeral.
Cesar Milan (I think that’s the spelling). He’s a wonderful human being.
Needless to say, any situation in which a helper is present involves a bite suit or sleeve, which will always be a contrived situation. But there is a point here: These are multi-exercise trials, the sequence of the exercises do attempt to "introduce" a stranger (the helper) to the dog in various modalities. Often, the first instance has the handler interacting positively with the dog as an acquaintance or a generally polite exchange with a stranger. Then, the helper returns, sneaking into the picture as a potential threat. So, yes, this type of training does address your question. Unlike Schutzhund, which is stuck in doing the same thing over and over, both Belgian ring, KNPV and particularly Mondio Ring have improved their trials for decades to produce as good a test of important real life attributes in a dog as is possible.
I have visited several trials at dog clubs in Europe. You might be surprised at the degree to which they vary. A lot of it is dependent upon the skill of the decoy and how many trained decoys are available. It is a very demanding skill and these guys do take serious risks, especially with bigger dogs like the DSD and the Bouvier. A lot of these men are big, 6'-4' and up. When a 120# Dutch Shepherd comes in at 30 miles an hour, they usually go down.
Seems strange that this poor pup was allowed to leave the DOD dog school at lackland AFB where all dogs at one time were trained for all services as patrol dogs first an specializing as Drug or Explosives detection second. Gunfire an lots of bites when I went. Air Force Speciality Codes have changed since to a new system. Used to be AFSC 81150A. I did that first two years before I cross trained over to EOD.
This was back in 72 so I suspect changes have been made yet I feel sorry for that pup.....hope it gets to play an be cared for the rest of its life.
Thanks SandRat. Lovely story. Lol, I can cry over doggy stories easier than people stories!
Blessings on all of them.
I have a rescue cocker that runs for cover in a panic at the first sound of gun fire or thunder. There's nothing in his four years with me that would make him that afraid. Like another poster said, maybe sometimes it's just the nature of that particular dog.
Indeed. I firmly believe in genetics, while society today wants to blame everything on environment (including accusing previous owners of cruelty if the dog is a coward, which is false).
I had the best dog in the world - a German Shepherd who nonetheless was gun-shy. As a pup. There was no reason for it, per se - she was tested at 3 mos and failed. Originally she was not afraid of thunder, but July 4th the following year (fireworks are near our home; gunshots in the sky, basically) made her transfer the gun-shy to thunder-shy at 1 year old.
However, she was the most stable dog I’ve ever known of - bold and assertive, excellent guard (yet not truly “aggressive”), ready to protect, yet playful and happy.
She could hear things miles away, and would alert. She could tell the second a person stepped over the border of our good-sized property, without looking. I now suspect that perhaps her hearing was SO acute, that gunshots hurt her ears - and thus, her fear of them. Perhaps your Cocker also has superb hearing.
The experts always calls these gun-shy dogs “cowardly” but my GS was most definitely not. Meanwhile, my current GS is a careless coward by nature (not horrid, now, but as pup - terrible), but she’s NOT EVER afraid of guns or thunder. Which dog would I prefer?
Now, although the capability is amazing, I have my concerns about the ethic. Although Rush's loyalty for Cindy's leadership is awesome, and I am certain he would defend her, I don't know if he would deal well with real opposition, transferring what he knows from play-prey to fight drive. My suspicion is that we are promoting many dogs that are wonderful in trials, but will crumble in harsh reality. Hence my preference for a harder dog.
The reason DSDs are becoming more popular in police and military work is that they have the size and power to bring down big drugged out bad guys. I am told that Miami Dade County Sheriffs like them a lot, as it is a "target rich environment."
I see what you are saying...
What I found really entertaining (other than the dog’s nearly rabid enthusiam!) was the way he went from being on his belly on the ground to standing motionless on all fours...he “sproinged” up!
I respectively disagree with you.
My first German Shorthair was major league gun shy from a stupid incident that my brother pulled when she was about 6 months old. When I got her to the trainer he put her in the very last kennel and would watch her reaction from the field as he live fire trained his other dogs. He said all she would do is cower and pee herself. After three months of training he called and said she was ready as he could get her.
I went up and as was his custom went on a planted hunt. She had no problem hunting and pointing but when he moved in to pull the string on the trap she would duck her head behind his leg. After the shot she would then start looking for the bird but had a much tougher time finding it as she didn’t mark the bird.
The next day I took her on her first real hunt and it was lights out. She was such an agressive hunter in the live situation that I could shoot over her all day long. But at the end of the day and the guys wanted to stand around the truck and thow up a couple of targets would just scare the living daylights out of her. it was like night and day. She was also deathly afraid of thunder and fireworks so much that I had to give her tranquilizers. Saw her bite her way out of more dog kennels then I can remember. Literally snapped the wire with her teeth. After 15 years she finally passed and didn’t have a tooth in her head...Some day we will hunt again Lucy, I love you and miss you!
That is actually taught, as is sitting without moving the front feet by skooching their buts forward. What you are looking at is a world class training operation. The videos are free; just get on Leerburg's mailing list. But in the mean time, I really do suggest you check out Michael Ellis' web site: michaelellisschool.com.
I don’t think the dogs are all bite-crazy. I’m casually familiar with Schutzhund, being a German Shepherd fancier. However, it’s my suspicion that the GS has become perhaps TOO hard exactly because of this obsession in Europe. I like the dog that was bred to herd, and invented various jobs like police/MIL and blind leaders and search and rescue. I see Belgians taking over in MIL/police (never seen a trend for Dutch yet) while retrievers are taking over their “nice” jobs like SAR and especially “service” dogs as for blind people. They used to do ALL of this and be the king.
Sorry to ramble. I get off track. I just wonder sometimes if such “hard” dogs are really necessary. For actual work, possibly. For “sport”, probably not.
With what do you disagree?
Think about what it takes to be a real shepherd dog 18 hours a day, seven days a week.
If “hard” means careless (emotionally), and capable of mechanically going after just anyone, I don’t think it applies there. I thought “hard” meant more “callous” and “cold” in the world of Schutzhund, and maybe “scared of nothing” (or perhaps in truth, heedless of anything), so they can easily go after anyone without a second thought. But maybe it’s a more general term than that?
No, you don't have it at all. The usual definition of the terms hard and soft as apply to dog training is that a hard dog can take a firm correction and come right back into focus. Do that to a soft dog and it is wrecked for life.
In general, the distinction between a hard dog and a soft one is genetic. A "hard" dog has very strong drives, has an opinion, and needs to be convinced you mean it, but once he gets it he doesn't need a reminder ever again. Dax can learn something new in three repetitions. The rest is to convince her I really mean it, teach her where the limits are (usually a matter of negotiations), AND to overcome her innate drives so that she hears it when given a command. I can forgo a multi-step routine with her for nearly a year, yet she still knows what to do.
The key for me is that a hard dog tolerates pain, boredom, or bad weather and still do the job, which means she is far more likely to deal well with harsh conditions or an animal attack or work-related injury without irreparable damage to her temperament or training.
Many competition dogs never feel pain, unless it is KNPV. In the KNPV "courage test" the dog comes in for a bite against a decoy armed with a switch. The dog comes in for the bite knowing he's going to get hit. The decoy must leave a visible welt on the dog or they rerun the test. Watch Vito in this one, the decoy hits him repeatedly with rubber hoses, but Vito wags his tail.
I know that to some people this sounds cruel, but it weeds out the dogs that would be no good after their first real battle with a bad guy, or in my case a wild animal. It can mean the difference between a happy life and a disabling injury or death for the dog. Guess which breeding program I want? Well, now you know why German Shepherds don't make it in KNPV; they're known for being soft dogs.
Your statement that they can’t be trained to overcome their problem.
No, I said for MANY dogs it IS genetic - in fact, it’s always 50/50 if some character thing is genetic or not. When you have PUPPIES that behave that way, it’s genetic.
That’s ALL I said.
I said nothing about overcoming it.
My dog has overcome alot of her puppy scared-stiff foolishness. I think much has to do with my obedience training her and using it to our advantage. She was always scared of “ghosts” and shadows, etc as a baby as soon as we brought her home. Gradually she got better. 1 bellwether was how she reacted to trash cans and bags in the neighborhood. She would shy at any of them, alerting from a distance and trying to avoid them. As she learned “heel”, I “forced” her to walk heel near and then next to them. Eventually, her inclination to obey overrode her fear of the cans and bags, and she got to realize they aren’t a threat. By the age of 3 or so she no longer shied from any bag (that includes her food bags, too).
But she was 1 of the most cowardly pups I saw at the start - not afraid of people (or thunder or shots), but just about everything else.
But that’s not to say all dogs’ behavior issues CAN be overcome. Some of us are just always a certain way, and it won’t change. Joyless dogs will never be happy, etc.
Thanks for the explanation. Somehow I’d never gotten that from the myriad discussions on Euro GS boards. Seemed it always referred to their, uh, ability to lash out. Guess I misunderstood the contexts.
“Well, now you know why German Shepherds don’t make it in KNPV; they’re known for being soft dogs.”
No; they just make it in the real world. ;-)
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