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Too many laws, too many prisoners
The Economist ^ | Thursday, July 22, 2010 | The Economist

Posted on 07/23/2010 10:30:44 AM PDT by jpl

Never in the civilised world have so many been locked up for so little

THREE pickup trucks pulled up outside George Norris’s home in Spring, Texas. Six armed police in flak jackets jumped out. Thinking they must have come to the wrong place, Mr Norris opened his front door, and was startled to be shoved against a wall and frisked for weapons. He was forced into a chair for four hours while officers ransacked his house. They pulled out drawers, rifled through papers, dumped things on the floor and eventually loaded 37 boxes of Mr Norris’s possessions onto their pickups. They refused to tell him what he had done wrong. “It wasn’t fun, I can tell you that,” he recalls.

Mr Norris was 65 years old at the time, and a collector of orchids. He eventually discovered that he was suspected of smuggling the flowers into America, an offence under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. This came as a shock. He did indeed import flowers and sell them to other orchid-lovers. And it was true that his suppliers in Latin America were sometimes sloppy about their paperwork. In a shipment of many similar-looking plants, it was rare for each permit to match each orchid precisely.

In March 2004, five months after the raid, Mr Norris was indicted, handcuffed and thrown into a cell with a suspected murderer and two suspected drug-dealers. When told why he was there, “they thought it hilarious.” One asked: “What do you do with these things? Smoke ’em?”

Prosecutors described Mr Norris as the “kingpin” of an international smuggling ring. He was dumbfounded: his annual profits were never more than about $20,000. When prosecutors suggested that he should inform on other smugglers in return for a lighter sentence, he refused, insisting he knew nothing beyond hearsay.

He pleaded innocent. But an undercover federal agent had ordered some orchids from him, a few of which arrived without the correct papers. For this, he was charged with making a false statement to a government official, a federal crime punishable by up to five years in prison. Since he had communicated with his suppliers, he was charged with conspiracy, which also carries a potential five-year term.

As his legal bills exploded, Mr Norris reluctantly changed his plea to guilty, though he still protests his innocence. He was sentenced to 17 months in prison. After some time, he was released while his appeal was heard, but then put back inside. His health suffered: he has Parkinson’s disease, which was not helped by the strain of imprisonment. For bringing some prescription sleeping pills into prison, he was put in solitary confinement for 71 days. The prison was so crowded, however, that even in solitary he had two room-mates.

A long love affair with lock and key

Justice is harsher in America than in any other rich country. Between 2.3m and 2.4m Americans are behind bars, roughly one in every 100 adults. If those on parole or probation are included, one adult in 31 is under “correctional” supervision. As a proportion of its total population, America incarcerates five times more people than Britain, nine times more than Germany and 12 times more than Japan. Overcrowding is the norm. Federal prisons house 60% more inmates than they were designed for. State lock-ups are only slightly less stuffed.

The system has three big flaws, say criminologists. First, it puts too many people away for too long. Second, it criminalises acts that need not be criminalised. Third, it is unpredictable. Many laws, especially federal ones, are so vaguely written that people cannot easily tell whether they have broken them.

In 1970 the proportion of Americans behind bars was below one in 400, compared with today’s one in 100. Since then, the voters, alarmed at a surge in violent crime, have demanded fiercer sentences. Politicians have obliged. New laws have removed from judges much of their discretion to set a sentence that takes full account of the circumstances of the offence. Since no politician wants to be tarred as soft on crime, such laws, mandating minimum sentences, are seldom softened. On the contrary, they tend to get harder.

Some criminals belong behind bars. When a habitual rapist is locked up, the streets are safer. But the same is not necessarily true of petty drug-dealers, whose incarceration creates a vacancy for someone else to fill, argues Alfred Blumstein of Carnegie Mellon University. The number of drug offenders in federal and state lock-ups has increased 13-fold since 1980. Some are scary thugs; many are not.

Michelle Collette of Hanover, Massachusetts, sold Percocet, a prescription painkiller. “I was planning to do it just once,” she says, “but the money was so easy. And I thought: it’s not heroin.” Then she became addicted to her own wares. She was unhappy with her boyfriend, she explains, but did not want to split up with him, because she did not want their child to grow up fatherless, as she had. So she popped pills to numb the misery. Before long, she was taking 20-30 a day.

When Ms Collette and her boyfriend, who also sold drugs, were arrested in a dawn raid, the police found 607 pills and $901 in cash. The boyfriend fought the charges and got 15 years in prison. In a plea bargain Ms Collette was sentenced to seven years, of which she served six.

“I don’t think this is fair,” said the judge. “I don’t think this is what our laws are meant to do. It’s going to cost upwards of $50,000 a year to have you in state prison. Had I the authority, I would send you to jail for no more than one year…and a [treatment] programme after that.” But mandatory sentencing laws gave him no choice.

Massachusetts is a liberal state, but its drug laws are anything but. It treats opium-derived painkillers such as Percocet like hard drugs, if illicitly sold. Possession of a tiny amount (14-28 grams, or ½-1 ounce) yields a minimum sentence of three years. For 200 grams, it is 15 years, more than the minimum for armed rape. And the weight of the other substances with which a dealer mixes his drugs is included in the total, so 10 grams of opiates mixed with 190 grams of flour gets you 15 years.

Ms Collette underwent drug treatment before being locked up, and is now clean. But in prison she found she was pregnant. After going through labour shackled to a hospital bed, she was allowed only 48 hours to bond with her newborn son. She was released in March, found a job in a shop, and is hoping that her son will get used to having her around.

Rigid sentencing laws shift power from judges to prosecutors, complains Barbara Dougan of Families Against Mandatory Minimums, a pressure-group. Even the smallest dealer often has enough to trigger a colossal sentence. Prosecutors may charge him with selling a smaller amount if he agrees to “reel some other poor slob in”, as Ms Dougan puts it. He is told to persuade another dealer to sell him just enough drugs to trigger a 15-year sentence, and perhaps to do the deal near a school, which adds another two years.

Severe drug laws have unintended consequences. Less than half of American cancer patients receive adequate painkillers, according to the American Pain Foundation, another pressure-group. One reason is that doctors are terrified of being accused of drug-trafficking if they over-prescribe. In 2004 William Hurwitz, a doctor specialising in the control of pain, was sentenced to 25 years in prison for prescribing pills that a few patients then resold on the black market. Virginia’s board of medicine ruled that he had acted in good faith, but he still served nearly four years.

Half the states have laws that lock up habitual offenders for life. In some states this applies only to violent criminals, but in others it applies even to petty ones. Some 3,700 people who committed neither violent nor serious crimes are serving life sentences under California’s “three strikes and you’re out” law. In Alabama a petty thief called Jerald Sanders was given a life term for pinching a bicycle. Alabama’s judges are elected, as are those in 32 other states. This makes them mindful of public opinion: some appear in campaign advertisements waving guns and bragging about how tough they are.

Watching hairs go white, and lifetimes ebb away

Many Americans assume that white-collar criminals get off lightly, but many do not. Granted, they may be hard to catch and can often afford good lawyers. But federal prosecutors can file many charges for what is essentially one offence. For example, they can count each e-mail sent by a white-collar criminal in the course of his criminal activity as a separate case of wire fraud, each of which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years. The decades soon add up. Sentences depend partly on the size of the loss and the number of people affected, so if you work for a big, publicly traded company, you break a rule and the share-price drops, watch out.

Eternal punishment

Jim Felman, a defence lawyer in Tampa, Florida, says America is conducting “an experiment in imprisoning first-time non-violent offenders for periods of time previously reserved only for those who had killed someone”. One of Mr Felman’s clients, a fraudster called Sholam Weiss, was sentenced to 845 years. “I got it reduced to 835,” sighs Mr Felman. Faced with such penalties, he says, the incentive to co-operate, which means to say things that are helpful to the prosecution, is overwhelming. And this, he believes, “warps the truth-seeking function” of justice.

Innocent defendants may plead guilty in return for a shorter sentence to avoid the risk of a much longer one. A prosecutor can credibly threaten a middle-aged man that he will die in a cell unless he gives evidence against his boss. This is unfair, complains Harvey Silverglate, the author of “Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent”. If a defence lawyer offers a witness money to testify that his client is innocent, that is bribery. But a prosecutor can legally offer something of far greater value—his freedom—to a witness who says the opposite. The potential for wrongful convictions is obvious.

Badly drafted laws create traps for the unwary. In 2006 Georgia Thompson, a civil servant in Wisconsin, was sentenced to 18 months in prison for depriving the public of “the intangible right of honest services”. Her crime was to award a contract (for travel services) to the best bidder. A firm called Adelman Travel scored the most points (on an official scale) for price and quality, so Ms Thompson picked it. She ignored a rule that required her to penalise Adelman for a slapdash presentation when bidding. For this act of common sense, she served four months. (An appeals court freed her.)

The “honest services” statute, if taken seriously, “would seemingly cover a salaried employee’s phoning in sick to go to a ball game,” fumes Antonin Scalia, a Supreme Court justice. The Supreme Court ruled recently that the statute was so vague as to be unconstitutional. It did not strike it down completely, but said it should be applied only in cases involving bribery or kickbacks. The challenge was brought by Enron’s former boss, Jeff Skilling, who will not go free despite his victory, and Conrad Black, a media magnate released this week on bail pending an appeal, who may.

There are over 4,000 federal crimes, and many times that number of regulations that carry criminal penalties. When analysts at the Congressional Research Service tried to count the number of separate offences on the books, they were forced to give up, exhausted. Rules concerning corporate governance or the environment are often impossible to understand, yet breaking them can land you in prison. In many criminal cases, the common-law requirement that a defendant must have a mens rea (ie, he must or should know that he is doing wrong) has been weakened or erased.

“The founders viewed the criminal sanction as a last resort, reserved for serious offences, clearly defined, so ordinary citizens would know whether they were violating the law. Yet over the last 40 years, an unholy alliance of big-business-hating liberals and tough-on-crime conservatives has made criminalisation the first line of attack—a way to demonstrate seriousness about the social problem of the month, whether it’s corporate scandals or e-mail spam,” writes Gene Healy, a libertarian scholar. “You can serve federal time for interstate transport of water hyacinths, trafficking in unlicensed dentures, or misappropriating the likeness of Woodsy Owl.”

“You’re (probably) a federal criminal,” declares Alex Kozinski, an appeals-court judge, in a provocative essay of that title. Making a false statement to a federal official is an offence. So is lying to someone who then repeats your lie to a federal official. Failing to prevent your employees from breaking regulations you have never heard of can be a crime. A boss got six months in prison because one of his workers accidentally broke a pipe, causing oil to spill into a river. “It didn’t matter that he had no reason to learn about the [Clean Water Act’s] labyrinth of regulations, since he was merely a railroad-construction supervisor,” laments Judge Kozinski.

Society wants retribution

Such cases account for only a tiny share of the Americans behind bars, but they still matter. When so many people are technically breaking the law, it is up to prosecutors to decide whom to pursue. No doubt most prosecutors choose wisely. But members of unpopular groups may not find that reassuring. Ms Thompson, for example, was prosecuted just before an election, at a time when allegations of public corruption in Wisconsin were in the news. Some prosecutors, such as Eliot Spitzer, the disgraced ex-governor of New York, have built political careers by nailing people whom voters don’t like, such as financiers.

Prison deters? Not much, not the worst

Some people argue that the system works: that crime has fallen in the past two decades because the bad guys are either in prison or scared of being sent there. Caged thugs cannot break into your home. Bernie Madoff’s 150-year sentence for running a Ponzi scam should deter imitators. And indeed the crime rate continues to drop, despite the recession, as Michael Rushford of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, an advocacy group, points out. This, he says, is because habitual criminals face serious consequences. Some research supports him: after raking through decades of historical data, John Donohue of Yale Law School estimates that a 10% increase in imprisonment brings a 2% reduction in crime.

Others disagree. Using more recent data, Bert Useem of Purdue University and Anne Piehl of Rutgers University estimate that a 10% increase in the number of people behind bars would reduce crime by only 0.5%. In the states that currently lock up the most people, imprisoning more would actually increase crime, they believe. Some inmates emerge from prison as more accomplished criminals. And raising the incarceration rate means locking up people who are, on average, less dangerous than the ones already behind bars. A recent study found that, over the past 13 years, the proportion of new prisoners in Florida who had committed violent crimes fell by 28%, whereas those inside for “other” crimes shot up by 189%. These “other” crimes were non-violent ones involving neither drugs nor theft, such as driving with a suspended licence.

And now the reckoning, in dollars

Crime is a young man’s game. Muggers over 30 are rare. Ex-cons who go straight for a few years generally stay that way: a study of 88,000 criminals by Mr Blumstein found that if someone was arrested for aggravated assault at the age of 18 but then managed to stay out of trouble until the age of 22, the risk of his offending was no greater than that for the general population. Yet America’s prisons are crammed with old folk. Nearly 200,000 prisoners are over 50. Most would pose little threat if released. And since people age faster in prison than outside, their medical costs are vast. Human Rights Watch, a lobby-group, talks of “nursing homes with razor wire”.

Jail is expensive. Spending per prisoner ranges from $18,000 a year in Mississippi to about $50,000 in California, where the cost per pupil is but a seventh of that. “[W]e are well past the point of diminishing returns,” says a report by the Pew Center on the States. In Washington state, for example, each dollar invested in new prison places in 1980 averted more than nine dollars of criminal harm (using a somewhat arbitrary scale to assign a value to not being beaten up). By 2001, as the emphasis shifted from violent criminals to drug-dealers and thieves, the cost-benefit ratio reversed. Each new dollar spent on prisons averted only 37 cents’ worth of harm.

Since the recession threw their budgets into turmoil, many states have decided to imprison fewer people, largely to save money. Mississippi has reduced the proportion of their sentences that non-violent offenders are required to serve from 85% to 25%. Texas is making greater use of non-custodial penalties. New York has repealed most mandatory minimum terms for drug offences. In all, the number of prisoners in state lock-ups fell by 0.3% in 2009, the first fall since 1972. But the total number of Americans behind bars still rose slightly, because the number of federal prisoners climbed by 3.4%.

A less punitive system could work better, argues Mark Kleiman of the University of California, Los Angeles. Swift and certain penalties deter more than harsh ones. Money spent on prisons cannot be spent on more cost-effective methods of crime-prevention, such as better policing, drug treatment or probation. The pain that punishment inflicts on criminals themselves, on their families and on their communities should also be taken into account.

“Just by making effective use of things we already know how to do, we could reasonably expect to have half as much crime and half as many people behind bars ten years from now,” says Mr Kleiman. “There are a thousand excuses for failing to make that effort, but not one good reason.”


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: crime; imprisonment; punishment
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To: jpl
Between 2.3m and 2.4m Americans are behind bars, roughly one in every 100 adults.

That's because we have a Constitution. My daughter spent 6 weeks studying in Russia earlier in the summer. She personally witnessed petty criminals like purse snatchers, pickpockets, and shoplifters being beaten senseless by Police officers, then left bleeding and lying on the street. It reminds me of training puppies. Once you smack them with a newspaper a couple of times, they learn.

Rather than being aghast, she suggested that we could reduce crime in the US by adopting a similar strategy.

21 posted on 07/23/2010 11:23:52 AM PDT by CholeraJoe (I saw Ellen Page bend a Paris street into a cube and it looked as real as the moon landing.)
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To: jpl
Failing to prevent your employees from breaking regulations you have never heard of can be a crime. A boss got six months in prison because one of his workers accidentally broke a pipe, causing oil to spill into a river.

And think about that. For most of us, even six months in prison for breaking a law we didn't even know about would be enough to lose our jobs, our homes, our cars, all of our possessions and wipe out our savings accounts. You'll get out of jail after six months and find your car repo'd, your home foreclosed and everything you owned sold off by the bank. Have fun starting over again from scratch, with a criminal record to boot.

22 posted on 07/23/2010 11:25:02 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: jpl; All
It’s all how you write it. Do you even know you are being influenced? How good are you at spotting propaganda? Let’s try a different approach and write the lead in story for a different view.

“Spring Texas isn’t what one thinks of when you hear international criminal or trafficking in endangered species, but a local resident has been uncovered as the head of an international criminal syndicate involved in importing endangered plants from South America.

In an effort to halt this practice officials were tipped to this smuggling operation and obtained a search warrant to search the property of George Norris. Six officers executed a search warrant and recovered 37 boxes of evidence that took three pickup trucks to move.

It took five months to process all of that evidence and prosecutors described Mr. Norris as the kingpin of an international smuggling ring. Mr. Norris has refused to cooperate with prosecutors on his accomplices and claimed that he never made more than $20,000. The facts were laid before a grand jury and Mr. Norris was indicted. With the evidence, proof of his coordinating efforts out of the country, and undercover buys from a federal official, Mr. Norris pled guilty and was sentenced to 17 months in prison.

Released on appeal Mr. Norris, did not prevail and garnered further problems when caught smuggling drugs into prison. Mr. Norris received 71 days in solitary for this offense, but received no additional criminal charges.”

It isn’t about Mr. Norris or this story; it’s about how the news is presented. The writer spins this story and so far, many have happily been led down the garden path. This story could have been about anything-food, politics, religion, economics, etc. That isn’t the point. The point is to understand the writer isn’t conveying information, he is conveying a very specific and slanted view. I have no idea if Mr. Norris is an innocent man run through the machine of an uncaring over regulated society, or a crook with an unusual scam. After reading the piece written here, no one else does either. What really happened? How can you trust the rest of the article when the first was so patently biased?

Is it any wonder that so many people are gullible? How many liberals have you met who were good people but believe the most amazing things? Articles like this are the reason why.

23 posted on 07/23/2010 11:27:10 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: Old Student
and every law passed should have a sunset provision. Like the Bush Tax cuts.

Yes and maybe. Some laws, like murder, robbery, rape, etc., need to be permanent. Legislators waste enough time and money as it is, I don't want to pay them every 5 or 10 years to go back and renew hard laws like murder, robbery, rape and the like!!

However, there ARE "laws" that I agree need to be reviewed periodically that the sunset provision should apply to.

24 posted on 07/23/2010 11:36:35 AM PDT by DustyMoment
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To: jpl

Climb in the trucks boyzs, we gots us a live one. It says heeare on this warrant, that this slimeball, is selling illeegal flyeers. Be shore to put on yur flak jackeets, lock and load. It’s partay time!
YEE HA!

Friggin embilciles.


25 posted on 07/23/2010 11:38:03 AM PDT by takenoprisoner (Freedom Watch: fight for freedom with everything you have.)
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To: IrishCatholic
It's rather obvious that this an editorial - an opinion piece. It's a viewpoint that I am coming to agree with more and more.

Thanks to a recently passed law, very soon, simply not having health insurance is going to be a crime, punishable by possible prison time.

Are you OK with this? I'm sure as hell not. I'm growing weary of having this government trying to control every single aspect of my life, and threatening to throw me in prison if I don't comply with their schemes.

26 posted on 07/23/2010 11:50:36 AM PDT by jpl (It's "My Big Fat Deadly Greek Riot", coming soon to a bankrupt socialist state near you.)
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To: jpl

OK with what? It is not an opinion piece, it is propaganda. To agree with it or oppose it goes along with the “Fake but accurate” mentality.

You could argue against over regulation. You could argue with over imprisonment. But with facts and reason. NOT with what is presented here.

It isn’t this topic either, it could be any subject. You have to have a foundation in the desire for objective truth before you can write an honest opinion piece.


27 posted on 07/23/2010 11:56:41 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009
Sad you say??? First he is either naive or stupid. He orders these endangered flowers and sends them international and then once in jail he sneaks in some prescription drugs....come on. Something is fishy here about this dude.
28 posted on 07/23/2010 12:04:46 PM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: jpl
Government has become a shakedown racket. Go after non-violent offenders to secure revenue through fines and licenses.

Too dangerous to go after gangs running drugs (besides they have corrupted law enforcement agencies and politicians on both sides of the border).

Too politically incorrect to go after sex slave trade or other illegal immigrants and those who traffic in them.

Besides it's more profitable to fine someone than to lock them up.

29 posted on 07/23/2010 12:15:45 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (I wish our president loved the US military as much as he loves Paul McCartney.)
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To: takenoprisoner

Next they will be putting on flak jackets to raid flea market CD vendors.


30 posted on 07/23/2010 12:16:54 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (I wish our president loved the US military as much as he loves Paul McCartney.)
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To: jpl

Every Juror should be given a pamphlet explaining “Jury Nulliufication”.


31 posted on 07/23/2010 12:21:47 PM PDT by hejahale (Jury Nullification)
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To: DustyMoment
“Yes and maybe. Some laws, like murder, robbery, rape, etc., need to be permanent. Legislators waste enough time and money as it is, I don't want to pay them every 5 or 10 years to go back and renew hard laws like murder, robbery, rape and the like!!”

So you'd rather that they have time to make up more useless enormous costly bills? Like, for example, Obamacare? Cap & Tax? Financial “reform”?

Personally, I LIKE the idea of keeping them too busy to have spare time for nonsense.

32 posted on 07/23/2010 12:22:35 PM PDT by Old Student
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To: Old Student
So you'd rather that they have time to make up more useless enormous costly bills?

And, you deduced that how??

What I want is for Congress to be in session no more than about 3 months every other year to pass a budget and then . . . GO HOME!!! I don't want them in session ~10 months out of every year because all they do is get into mischief. If the president needs them for something, he can call a special session and when, whatever it is is resolved, they can GO HOME!!!!

'Zat answer your question??

33 posted on 07/23/2010 12:59:47 PM PDT by DustyMoment
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To: Drew68
What about the person who transported water hyacinths across state lines?

Don't know how much time they got, but laws against transporting water hyacinths across state lines make a lot of sense.

34 posted on 07/23/2010 1:06:35 PM PDT by wideminded
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To: hejahale
Every Juror should be given a pamphlet explaining “Jury Nulliufication”.

Exactly, like govt mandated warnings on products.

I'd wager 7 out of 10 jurors have never heard of the Jury Nullification option.

35 posted on 07/23/2010 1:16:37 PM PDT by takenoprisoner (Freedom Watch: fight for freedom with everything you have.)
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To: wideminded
Don't know how much time they got, but laws against transporting water hyacinths across state lines make a lot of sense.

But does removing such an offender from the productive ranks of society and incarcerating them at great expense make sense? Is there not a better way to punish this crime than making someone a ward of the state where they have to be housed and fed on the taxpayers' dime?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against prisons. Prisons are effective at protecting society from those classes of criminals who threaten our life and liberty. But the idea that every broken law merits prison sentences, and increasingly long ones, is archaic, expensive and counterproductive to society, unless of course one is in the business of building prisons. There's plenty of other ways to punish non-violent criminals without locking them up that would better serve society.

36 posted on 07/23/2010 1:32:15 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: CholeraJoe
An Indonesian buddy of mine said they did something similar in his home country. but far more effective. The local police would go through the dossiers of career criminals in their jurisdiction and pick out those most likely to commit horrific crimes. They would then mysteriously vanish, only to turn up later dead (if they were lucky) for a variety of causes.

I do not advocate the same sort of thing in the United States. I'm just pointing out that it is the natural progression of things when authorities are allowed to selectively enforce the law.

37 posted on 07/23/2010 2:38:49 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: jpl

It’s the prison industrial complex. And it needs new inputs all the time.

By making darn near everything a felony, we’ve turned a significant portion of the population into convicted felons. And in the final analysis, you still can’t walk in areas of any good sized city at night.

This is a failed and immoral strategy.


38 posted on 07/23/2010 2:44:58 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics, and victors study demographics.)
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To: jpl
The number of drug offenders in federal and state lock-ups has increased 13-fold since 1980. Some are scary thugs; many are not.

OK.
I got sucked in.

It took a while to get to the heart of this article, another diatribe by the "drug users are misunderstood" contingent.

Wish they had made the point sooner and saved me lots of time.

39 posted on 07/23/2010 4:28:43 PM PDT by Publius6961 ("We don't want to hear words; we want action and results.")
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To: jpl

Obama and others like him believe society should be one huge concentration camp. We used to call those people communists, now they call themselves progressives.


40 posted on 07/23/2010 4:41:42 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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