But that is the point I am trying to make. They are still being played out today because neither side will let go of it. They are essentially still fighting out the arguments of 400 years ago. The actual differences between the two sides now are minimal in comparison to what they were then, and certainly much less than their similarities now.
I don’t believe this is about grudges. It is about a still unfolding problem.
I think you're wrong.
No, actually I have done no such thing.
Ok. So who cares what you think about Ireland? It's none of your business and you don't know enough about it anyway.
Alright, I can see that, but what if they were not just in the past but in reality just the beginning of a continuing problem?
Well you have said many times that the problem began with the transplantation starting in the 1600's and accelerating in the 17th 18th century, although I note you make no mention of the various relaxations of the unjust laws in Ireland in the late 19th century (courtesy W Gladstone). I digress. If this all started 400 years back, how can it be the beginning of a continuing problem? Come to think of it, how can anything be a "beginning of a continuing problem"? Actually, that may be the nub of it. Everything in northern Ireland is always the "beginning of a continuing problem." It's a problem that never goes away because there are interested parties who dont want it to, so there's always a "new beginning", another stage in the dispute.
No, actually I don’t.
Yes, actually you do.
Show me where I have.
Well the following paragraph for a start off.
I think their feelings in that regard they are largely imaterial. In other words, if they wish to be British, they can move to England, or Scotland or Wales. This is the sad state of things for invaders who do not both win a war and make a legitimate peace with the conquered.
Many of them who wanted to be British have already left. The ones who are left want to be British, and they don't want to move. And frankly, I don't see why they should.
They could have simply been just to the Irish from the beginning. If the English had been then none of this probably would have ever happened.
I dont believe that for one second.
You wrote:
“But that is the point I am trying to make. They are still being played out today because neither side will let go of it. They are essentially still fighting out the arguments of 400 years ago. The actual differences between the two sides now are minimal in comparison to what they were then, and certainly much less than their similarities now.”
Apparently they don’t believe so.
“I think you’re wrong.”
It doesn’t matter. They seem to believe exactly what I am saying.
“Ok. So who cares what you think about Ireland? It’s none of your business and you don’t know enough about it anyway.”
I apparently know more than you - that seems clear - and apparently you care about what I think about Ireland because you keep posting to me.
“Well you have said many times that the problem began with the transplantation starting in the 1600’s and accelerating in the 17th 18th century, although I note you make no mention of the various relaxations of the unjust laws in Ireland in the late 19th century (courtesy W Gladstone).”
No relaxation solved the problems. If they did, you would not be having this conversation.
“I digress. If this all started 400 years back, how can it be the beginning of a continuing problem? Come to think of it, how can anything be a “beginning of a continuing problem”?”
Problems begin and end. In between the beginning and the end they are “continuing”. Are you really saying you did not realize that?
“Actually, that may be the nub of it. Everything in northern Ireland is always the “beginning of a continuing problem.” It’s a problem that never goes away because there are interested parties who dont want it to, so there’s always a “new beginning”, another stage in the dispute.”
No. There was a problem in Ireland with the British occupation. Now there isn’t. For there are no British soldiers in Ireland except for the North (where the other problems continue). Thus, a problem that began centuries ago, and continued for centuries, has ended COMPLETELY in 26 counties of Ireland. Do you see how that works? Problems can be ended. They cannot be ended when people pretend they don’t exist.
“Yes, actually you do.”
No, actually I don’t.
“Well the following paragraph for a start off. I think their feelings in that regard they are largely imaterial. In other words, if they wish to be British, they can move to England, or Scotland or Wales. This is the sad state of things for invaders who do not both win a war and make a legitimate peace with the conquered.”
You have failed - again. In post 195, I asked: “And who here is saying they are responsible for things that happened centuries ago? Certainly not me. I have no idea why you are going on and on rejecting something that no one is suggesting to you (or at least I am not).”
What you posted doesn’t even come close to what you are suggesting.
“Many of them who wanted to be British have already left.”
Then taht proves what I said is correct.
” The ones who are left want to be British, and they don’t want to move. And frankly, I don’t see why they should.”
I think they should stay - but I think Ireland should be reunited. So do the Irish.
“I dont believe that for one second.”
Then you don’t believe common sense. If the English were more just to the Irish and had not murdered them in the thousands, stole their land, banned their language and religion and otherwise brutalized them, there would be no reason to believe the Irish would still be fighting the English.