Posted on 07/13/2010 8:04:34 AM PDT by Sub-Driver
We have one standard, ANSI. And it works great for most folks. That 1% it doesn’t work for are, innately, off standard, but it’s a big world with a side variety of products readily available, so they can go get their own paper.
It’s easier to stay with what we have. Everybody in America has ANSI paper and their hardware (printers/ typewriters/ whatever) works with it.
My wife is a papercrafter, the weight system makes perfectly good sense to her, and to everybody else doesn’t matter. Most folks don’t really care about weight, the people that do though don’t want it standardized by dimensions, they have real reasons to want paper of size X to be available in a wide variety of weights.
the people that do though don’t want it standardized by dimensions, they have real reasons to want paper of size X to be available in a wide variety of weights.
The most common availability for printing goes from 60g (like 16# bond) through to 400g (250# TAG) in any standard size. Outside that, 40g paper is usually reserved for thin newsprint, and 500g+ is getting into heavy art paper territory. See, to go from ultra-thin newsprint to heavy cardstock, I got to use one system. I didn't go from "newsprint" weights on the light end, through "bond" and "cover" weights in the middle to "TAG" weights on the heavy end.
Can you even get 80# "bond"? Or would they just direct you to 110# "cover"? Both would be about 300g. The ANSI system slots the commonly available basis weights into specific grade qualities of paper, not much freedom there, and added complexity. With ISO/DIN you just pick a weight, pick a size and pick a quality (rough/fine/glossy/etc.).
American doesn’t tend to just follow the government though. Unless they actually make it a law we tend to push the government around. Just look at the history of legal sized paper, Americans found it inconvenient, photocopy machines by and large didn’t support it, so the government had to stop using it. If we worked like Europeans that would never happen, no photocopier company would ever leave out the government market. Here in America we’d pretty much already decides 8.5x14 was a PITA and the photocopier companies followed demand. Same thing happened with metric, the government wanted to convert and the people weren’t interested.
80# is the general favorite for card stock, I know tons of places to get it, anywhere papercrafters buy from will have 80# in a wide array of colors and patterns. Remember the names like “bond” and “tag” and “cover” are just conveniences for discussion, kind of like cigar sizes. The weight is what matters and in the wife’s circles they mostly don’t even use the labels because they know they’re not really trustworthy (most brands will call 80# card stock, but some label 60# as card stock and some label 110# as card stock). The American paper market is a lot more wide open than you think, but most of the “odd” stuff is going to be in the craft stores, where people want weird paper.
I don’t remember his last name, but he was Afrikaner.
"They're not really trustworthy" pretty much shows you right there that the system is screwed up and people have learned to compensate. People who learn the system are so vested in their knowledge, their mastery of something complex, that many refuse to move to an easier system.
80# bond is about as heavy as 110# cover, and 60# cover is about as heavy as as #40 bond. All are in the range of what would be called card stock. But I hope you don't order 40# thinking you'll get card stock, but you end up with slightly thin writing paper because you got index instead of bond. Do we do any other purchasing this overly complex?
It doesn’t say anything about the system, the system is fine. It show the problem with companies. There’s a standard out there, and it’s pretty easy to find enumerated and follow, but these companies decide not to follow it and make up their own definitions for all the standard labels. Which is why the people that use the product have learned to ignore the formerly convenient labels and just pay attention to the stats.
There’s a lot more to the various papers than just heaviness. There’s how well they take what kinds of ink, how well they take a fold.
Oh yeah we’ve got plenty of things out there this complex to purchase. Try hooking a digital modem up to a digital phone line some time. Not only do you have 3 main protocols, you’ve got about a couple of different framings, a handful of codings, 2 different APIs and just to make sure it’s a pain in the but there’s at least 2 and sometimes 3 different names for each one of those things so you’ve got to hope modem company and your telco use the same words, which they won’t, so you better have somebody in house that knows which different things are actually the same things. I’ve made very smart people grab their temples in pain in 5 minutes of discussing telephony, it makes all this other stuff seem pushmower simple.
It sounds like they are properly labeling, just people assume the wrong grade, which changes the meaning of the labeling.
There’s a lot more to the various papers than just heaviness. There’s how well they take what kinds of ink, how well they take a fold.
That's why you have bond, cover, newsprint, etc. Those aren't meaningless, they are paper grades. Cover is stiffer, low-pulp, while newsprint is flimsy, high-pulp.
Oh yeah we’ve got plenty of things out there this complex to purchase. Try hooking a digital modem up to a digital phone line some time.
That's how you set it up, but that's not how you buy it. You buy it as Mbps and/or GB per month. Simple.
No, they aren’t properly labeling, you can go to the papercraft section anyplace and see papers of VASTLY different characteristics all labeled “card stock”. that’s why the crafters have learned to ignore what they call it and pay attention to the stats, they know what they like, and they know not to pay attention to what the companies call it.
No that’s how you buy it too. Some telcos dictate but most you get to pick, RB or ISDN, B8ZS or JBZS. And not all digital modems can handle all the stuff, the good ones can but he good ones cost 5 grand more than the not so good ones so if you’re laying out for 10 T1s that’s a big difference.
There's no definition of card stock. In general it means something thicker than writing paper, that you can use as a card. In ISO, you'll see everything from around 140g and up called card stock. It's meaningless really. What's important is that number. In ISO a bigger number means heavier paper every time, regardless of size or grade. In ANSI not necessarily so, especially when properly labeled.
No that’s how you buy it too. Some telcos dictate but most you get to pick, RB or ISDN, B8ZS or JBZS.
Does the definition of Mbps change with each one?
For a while card stock meant 80# bond, then things went random. That’s what I’ve been telling you though, it’s just a label, just like tag and those other things, somewhat convenient when companies are consistent, but in the long run meaningless and it’s best just to go by the physical properties.
Mbps is perhaps the least important characteristic of your phoneline at purchase time. Al the Mbps in the world doesn’t do you a damn bit of good if you didn’t know to get the PRI modem because that’s the same thing as ISDN which you bought from the telco.
Mbps is perhaps the least important characteristic of your phoneline at purchase time.
Does the meaning of mpbs change?
The meaning of everything else changes. That’s what I’m telling you. If you have a 2Mpbs T1-ISDN B8ZS phoneline and you plug it into a 2Mpbs T1-ISDN JBZS modem your throughput will be zero Mpbs, so if you just paid attention to the Mpbs you just spent probably 12 grand to get nothing. And on a practical level yeah 2 Mpbs in robbed-bit and ISDN are actually slightly different in throughput speed (you lose 1 bit of every byte in robbed bit for time slicing, and you lose one channel of 24 in ISDN for the same, so you’ll either get 7/8 of the speed on 24 channels or all the speed on 23).
And there’s plenty of other things that are complicated too. Bought a TV lately, did you you figure out the difference between 720p, 1080p and 1080i and how they’re all HD but not all are HD as each other and if your signal is coming in through something other than an HDMI jack the first part pretty much doesn’t matter? Ever help the wife shop for bras and found out how different brands and different styles cause her to be a different size? Heck, have you taken a good look at the toothpaste aisle lately?
We live in a world of options, which makes things complicated.
I don't care about that. I'm paying for some guy to put all the right pieces together to get me the 2 Mbps I'm paying for. And if I order 4 Mbps, I know it'll give me twice as much throughput as ordering 2 Mbps. I don't find out that the 4 Mpbs I ordered uses a different scale so is actually equivalent to 2 Mbps.
Bought a TV lately, did you you figure out the difference between 720p, 1080p and 1080i and how they’re all HD but not all are HD as each other and if your signal is coming in through something other than an HDMI jack the first part pretty much doesn’t matter?
I've found that fairly simple. The number is the vertical resolution, and a higher number means a higher resolution than a lower number. You also have the refresh rate, and a higher number means a higher refresh rate than a lower number. Other aspects add complexity, but at least bigger numbers mean bigger things.
Heck, have you taken a good look at the toothpaste aisle lately?
Last time I checked, the higher the number of ounces on the label, the more toothpaste in the tube. There are not seven different ounce standards used in the measuring of toothpaste. "Is this 5 oz 'bond' or 5 oz 'cover'? Which one's more? Where's my conversion chart?"
We live in a world of options, which makes things complicated.
It's an issue of making it more complicated than it needs to be. Standardization along the lines of a sane, simple standard can be a very good thing. It was hell to learn to drive a car way back when, before Cadillac set the standard for today's modern layout. At one point I had actually been taught how to drive a Model T. I can't remember exactly how anymore, but I do remember it was absolutely insane.
No you do care about that. Because if the pieces aren’t right you get get zero. And like I said, you never truly get the full throughput. None of the stuff in the paper discussion made anywhere near the change your talking about.
Ahh you ignored the i and the p in the TVs, those have GREAT meaning.
And once again you’re being deliberately obtuse. There’s a lot more to toothpaste than ounces, whitening/ non-whitening/ different kind of whitening/ anti-gingivitis/ different kind of anti-gingivitis/ breath freshening/ flouridated/ not minty. It’s a crazy world.
None of these things are more complicated than they need to be. Standardization is nice for people that want to do standard things. But it’s a wild and wooly world out there. That’s why these things get complicated, because there’s people that don’t want to do standard things. They didn’t make these varieties for fun, they made them in response to customer demand. There’s a million different weight/ size/ finish combos in paper because there are a million different WANTS for weight/ size/ finish combination. And if you take the time to learn it and understand it it makes sense.
Just like MPG, to bring it back to the original topic. It give all the data needed, in just as clean a way and GPHM, nice and clean, and the only reason there’s a “trick” question is because it’s a question nobody gives a crap about the answer to.
No, the guy installing it has to care about that in order to get my my contracted 2 Mbps.
None of the stuff in the paper discussion made anywhere near the change your talking about.
80# bond = 110# cover. If I order "80#" I could end up with cover, which is only 60# bond.
Ahh you ignored the i and the p in the TVs, those have GREAT meaning.
Just another complication.
None of these things are more complicated than they need to be.
Exactly! They all use a linear standard of units.
That’s why these things get complicated, because there’s people that don’t want to do standard things.
The problem comes when the standard itself is overly complicated. For example, paper being available in 80# bond, which it isn't really supposed to be according to the standard, is what people do when the standard itself doesn't make sense in the real world. What you see is people settling one one weight system, bond, because the larger system is too complicated. In case you haven't noticed, that means the market is leaning to the one scale for them all that ISO does.
If you’re going to take the attitude that you can just hire somebody that knows then all your complaints about the paper system face the same dismissal.
no 80# bond does equal 110# cover, that’s quite simply bullshit and you know it.
Yeah complications happen, that’s my point.
Whose standard says 80# bond shouldn’t exist? Not any I’ve seen. Nope, I see people getting ALL KINDS of paper, different weights, different finished, all for different needs. I have noticed that the market is doing exactly the opposite of what you just said, it’s not leaning to one scale at all. I’ve been to Kelly Paper, and it proves you wrong across the board.
That's generally the attitude I take. I want 2 Mbps. I want 80# paper for the cover of my booklet. Wait, no, I meant 80# cover, not that ultra-thick 80# bond! What, you already printed ten thousand copies? How much more is that going to cost me?
no 80# bond does equal 110# cover, that’s quite simply bullshit and you know it.
Both 80# bond and 110# cover are about the same weight as 300g ISO.
Whose standard says 80# bond shouldn’t exist?
It is not one of the standard bond sizes.
You’re really clever at the editing and not bothering to read whole sentences. The attitude I was talking about was hiring a professional so you don’t have to worry about it. If you’re going to hire a professional then every last one of your arguments is invalid, just hire a professional, don’t worry about the paper, hire a professional.
Which really is what you need to do. Bye.
Okay, I hire a professional and tell him I want 80# paper, just as I hired the phone pro telling him I want 2 Mbps. What do I get?
It depends.
Upon what you want to lie about.
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