GM's Chinese sales top U.S.

Out of curiosity, how much does a car sell for in china? Is GM selling them cheaper, making the difference from the US taxpayer?

And look what we’ve gotten . . . over priced, crappy motorcycles, and a firm that’s destined for a bailout.

Whether you like them or not, once Reagan kept Harley from going out of business, they captured 45% of the cruiser market and have operated profitably without government assistance for thirty years. The Japanese have copied Harley's retro style shamelessly, and in their cruisers, usually hide the company name. When people buy a Yamaha cruiser, they want people to think it's a Harley.

Europe did something similar with Airbus. Airbus got government funding to sell their planes at below cost. The plan was to force Boeing and Lockheed out of business, then raise the price to where they were profitable. It wasn't successful.

If you don't understand the nature of product dumping to kill a competitor, try playing poker against someone with thirty times the money you have in a no limit game. All he has to do is raise more than you've got and you'll never win a hand.

The article refers to GM as owned by U.S. taxpayers. Shch a statement should make all of us wretch. The U. S. government owns G.M. The taxpayers no more own GM than the people of the Soviet Union owned the productive capacity in that communist state.

Marx’s BS notwithstanding, government officials and Communist Party members “owned” the means of production in the Soviet Union. They allocated the capital and they reaped the rewards. In the U.S., government officials and GM’s union employees (who are really government employees and, along with other unionized government workers, are analogous to Communist Party members in the USSR) allocate capital connected with GM and reap the rewards.

If you want to support Marxism, buy a GM product.

The article refers to GM as owned by U.S. taxpayers. Shch a statement should make all of us wretch.

Yes, if you look at GM's investor FAQ (found as a link from http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/), you run across this:

3. Can I buy shares in General Motors Company? Will there be an initial public offering?
There are currently no shares of General Motors Company for sale to the public. It will initially be owned by the U.S. Treasury, the governments of Canada and Ontario, the UAW VEBA and Motors Liquidation Company. We expect that shares of the General Motors Company will be publicly traded in the future, and this may involve an initial public offering. Also, as early as the second quarter of 2010, General Motors Company may be contractually required by its new stockholders to register their stock for sale to the public; however, we do not know when or if any of these stockholders will sell any of their shares.

Yep. There's another problem, though, that I don't see us getting around. The standard of living in the US has been very high, especially compared to what we'd usually refer to as "emerging markets," India and China, especially. A guy in India who is very bright and very competent is working 14 hour days in a fairly high tech field and maybe has a moped.

Post a picture of a Tata, which is a dream car for the average Indian, and you'll get about twenty FR posters laughing at it. Top speed of 60 mph, no A/C, two cylinder 620CC engine (a lot of people here wouldn't have a motorcycle with an engine that small.) It's our joke and their dream. How long can we continue to keep our end of the bathtub full while theirs is empty? Globalization is a reality, and your point that Apple can't build their products here cause they'd cost five times as much is exactly true.

Little note: I went to the local Hobby Lobby to buy a small set of acrylic paints. They had four different brands which were similar in product quantity, etc. Two were made in the US. One was made in Europe. One was made in China. The US and European sets were over $20. The Chinese one was $5. Back to our original points. If the US is to be competitive, working low end jobs has to become more profitable than welfare, meaning we have to quit paying people not to work. People say they want American products, but are not willing to pay four times the price for a US product. The first products that went overseas were low-skill products, like clothing. Now, emerging markets can produce high tech products better and cheaper than we can, and increasingly, design is moving there also. We've put off the equalization of standard of living by borrowing, but we've reached the end of that road. A lot of people are not going to like what comes next.

If you would like to be added or dropped from the Michigan ping list, please freepmail me.

China insisted the cars sold in China, be made there.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the APTA agreement between Canada and the U.S. has been in existence since 1965 and nobody seems to have a problem with that....

China last year halved the sales tax on new vehicles to 5 percent and set aside 5 billion yuan ($733 million) in subsidies for customers who replace old models, helping insulate the country from slumping global demand.

GM had better live it up. the chinese market will dry up for 2 years (or more) just like the US market has done when the chinese government ends it's "yuan for clunkers" program.

Maybe you should’ve put a tariff on foreign strawmen, so that we all could pay more for them. Imagine the boom.

It was good enough for the Founders, lol. Financed federal government in it's entirety. Imagine the boom with no federal income tax and no IRS, just tariffs on imports.

I’m just saying . . . if you’re gonna’ wrap yourself in the flag, you shouldn’t be such a hypocrite about it . . . it demeans the flag.

Oh, my. I guess you're the expert in flag-wrapping now, lol.

Yep. There's another problem, though, that I don't see us getting around. The standard of living in the US has been very high, especially compared to what we'd usually refer to as "emerging markets," India and China, especially. A guy in India who is very bright and very competent is working 14 hour days in a fairly high tech field and maybe has a moped.

Post a picture of a Tata, which is a dream car for the average Indian, and you'll get about twenty FR posters laughing at it. Top speed of 60 mph, no A/C, two cylinder 620CC engine (a lot of people here wouldn't have a motorcycle with an engine that small.) It's our joke and their dream. How long can we continue to keep our end of the bathtub full while theirs is empty? Globalization is a reality, and your point that Apple can't build their products here cause they'd cost five times as much is exactly true.

I think we need to factor in that the prosperity we enjoyed as a country, despite the socialism FDR and LBJ put into it was because after World War II, we were the only major world power that was not blown up to one degree or another. Germany was turned to rubble as was Japan. France was occupied and on rubber legs. USSR was beaten up to one degree or another. The UK took her hits, rationing wasn't totally gone until 1954. Italy was a basket case. That left us, being untouched.

We had a good game going from 1945 until a few years ago. Noted libertarian, Robert J. Ringer, said that had it not been for the computer revolution of the late 1970's and early 1980's that spurred on the internet of the 1990's until a few years ago plus adding in Ronald Reagan's economic policies, we would have had our collapse by 1985 or 1990, almost a generation ago. The rest of the world has caught up and/or catching up to us, plus you have Red China and India emerging. They want the same goodies we have.

I think overall, we will have to get used to a less affluent lifestyle. Yes, we will still have our homes, cars, air conditioning and so on, but we might have to get used to a smaller home and buy a car every 7 to 10 years, if not longer. We might have to get used to the lifestyle our parents or grandparents had, we might see multi-generational households that were more common prior to World War II. Maybe the prosperity we enjoyed was a historical aberration.

Little note: I went to the local Hobby Lobby to buy a small set of acrylic paints. They had four different brands which were similar in product quantity, etc. Two were made in the US. One was made in Europe. One was made in China. The US and European sets were over $20. The Chinese one was $5. Back to our original points. If the US is to be competitive, working low end jobs has to become more profitable than welfare, meaning we have to quit paying people not to work. People say they want American products, but are not willing to pay four times the price for a US product. The first products that went overseas were low-skill products, like clothing. Now, emerging markets can produce high tech products better and cheaper than we can, and increasingly, design is moving there also. We've put off the equalization of standard of living by borrowing, but we've reached the end of that road. A lot of people are not going to like what comes next.

Normally if all nations played by the same rules, more or less, 1rudeboy would be correct. Unfortunately, they do not and sometimes we might have to go against the rules in the book in order to survive and prosper. WE cannot put up barriers so high that trade is hurt but we cannot let in lots of stuff that would hurt our prosperity, or what's left if it, either. Also, we are in debt and without some forms of industry and so on, we will never pay it off. Heck, I don't think we will ever pay it off anyways, but that is for another topic and time unless any of us wants to take it from there.

If I may say where 1rudeboy is correct on is that we have priced our labor up through too high demands from unions and regulation along with taxes. I agree with him on that one, we do need to make our country more business friendly but with a lefty Congress right now and the "Kenyan in Chief" in the White Hut, that is about as likely as making monkey's fly out of my butt.

Good post.

As to your comment about multigenerational households, my daughter, in her thirties, continues to live with us, and works full time. My wife and other daughter look after the house, and we are able to have a higher standard of living than we would otherwise.

Also, we are in debt and without some forms of industry and so on, we will never pay it off. Heck, I don't think we will ever pay it off anyways, but that is for another topic and time unless any of us wants to take it from there.

I suspect that the ultimate plan, if there is one, is to inflate our way out of the debt. I've already noticed some significant inflation in foreign manufactured products that can't be reduced in price by finding cheaper manufacturing processes. A Canon professional camera lens (300 2.8L) has increased in price from a little over $3000 to $4500 in the last eighteen months. The replacement camera for my current one (Canon 1D Mark IV) is $5,000. The previous model was $4000. This is a departure for Canon, who used to keep their price points the same when upgrading to a new model.

Inflation that reduces our foreign buying power could force some manufacturing back here, although I can't see much happening if regulations and taxes continue to increase. Also, business people now are concerned about the instability of our government. Not so much that it's going to collapse, but that sweeping new regulations will change the rules overnight. Businessmen feel safer dealing with China than the US, right now.

"when a foreign firm opens shop up in the U.S., the protectionist retards yelp that “the profits are going overseas.” So what’s it gonna’ be?"

I thought the same thing but would be unable to say it so well as you did. BTTT.

Both Honda and Toyota have a very strong presence in the PRC auto market.
Volkswagen is also well positioned. The vehicles are manufactured in joint venture factories. Parts are made in other countries for these factories and are shipped to the PRC for assembly and sale.

Buick/GM in China is a joint venture with:
SAIG Motors

They sell a lot of cars. SAIC is also working on a joint venture with GM in India.

Good post.

As to your comment about multigenerational households, my daughter, in her thirties, continues to live with us, and works full time. My wife and other daughter look after the house, and we are able to have a higher standard of living than we would otherwise.

I'll be 44 Thursday, I live at home with Mom. Why should I move out and pay rent? It is not economically sensible for me to do so. I'm of limited means right now, well, all of us are, heck, my car is 16 years old, our main TV is 28 years old, we bought that new in 1983. In today's world, you have to be frugal. I'm glad your daughter is doing the same thing.

A side note, I hate it when people demonize adult children who stay at home. I look at it this way, as long as they do their share of the chores and/or drop their fair share of "shekels in the common pot," pulling their weight so to speak, there is nothing wrong with that. However, if they are lazy and do nothing, I know of a few myself, those are the ones that deserve the bad judgment. My best friend I've been hanging with since 1977 in 5th grade and also one of my bosses at work, he lived with his mother all his life, he just turned 45 on the 4th. His mom passed away in April of 2009 and he got married in June of 2009. If she was still alive, they'd be bouncing between her and his wife's family in nearby Ohio.

I suspect that the ultimate plan, if there is one, is to inflate our way out of the debt. I've already noticed some significant inflation in foreign manufactured products that can't be reduced in price by finding cheaper manufacturing processes. A Canon professional camera lens (300 2.8L) has increased in price from a little over $3000 to $4500 in the last eighteen months. The replacement camera for my current one (Canon 1D Mark IV) is $5,000. The previous model was $4000. This is a departure for Canon, who used to keep their price points the same when upgrading to a new model.

Inflation that reduces our foreign buying power could force some manufacturing back here, although I can't see much happening if regulations and taxes continue to increase. Also, business people now are concerned about the instability of our government. Not so much that it's going to collapse, but that sweeping new regulations will change the rules overnight. Businessmen feel safer dealing with China than the US, right now.

Don't know how we can inflate our way out of debt, the key is that there has to be demand as well, if people cut back, you might not see much inflation. Even if we inflate ourselves out of debt, I still an trying to grasp the idea on how it could be done.

Speaking of Chinese vs. U.S. made stuff, I work in auto parts, well I am a delivery driver. At work, we got a bulletin for a fuel filter that is being recalled because the stems are a bit too long and the fuel line can fall off and the gasoline would leak out and create a mess along with a fire hazzard. The fuel filter is made both in the U.S. and Red China, guess which one is the recall? Yeap, you guessed it, the one made in Red China.