Vattel and the Founders meaning of the term Naturels (Natural Born)

Journals of the Continental Congress 1781 ^ | 1781 | The Founders

[bushpilot1]

In the Journals of the Continental Congress there is a translation of the French word naturels to natural born. Meaning the Founders understood Vattel's naturels to mean natural born.

The document and its translation by the Founders must have been overlooked over the years by the courts, congress and the news media.

In French.

ARTICLE III Les consuls et vice consuls respectifs ne pourront être pris que parmi les sujets naturels de la puissance qui les nommera.

The Founders Translation.

The respective Consuls and Vice Consuls shall only be taken from among the natural born subjects of the power nominating them.

[bushpilot1]

Vattels Law of Nations: Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages. Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens.

The English translation and how the Founders understood the paragraph to mean:

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

We know the Founders had copies of Vattel's Law of Nations.

It matters not where Obama was born..he is not a natural born citizen.

[ExTxMarine]

“It matters not where Obama was born..he is not a natural born citizen.”

This is something I have been saying all along! Just like the illegals who come here and have a kid - their children are NOT citizens, because their parents are NOT citizens!

DUH!!

[DJ MacWoW]

ping

[Las Vegas Ron]

It matters not where Obama was born..he is not a natural born citizen.

Nothing matters anymore, the law, the Constitution, you, me, the individual, Citizen, America, we've been taken over in a silent, peaceful, politically correct coup.

The question is, what the hell do we do?

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

The works of Vattel are not the supreme law of the land. The Constitution is very specific what the supreme law of the land is:

The Constitution itself.
All law made under the Constitution.
Treaties confirmed by the Senate.

Under the laws of the the land, Obama is a citizen at birth, otherwise known as a natural born citizen. The argument you make from a French translation of a Latin language political philosophy exercise is worse than weak.

But I guess facts don’t matter to people who just want their point of view to be reality.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

This is something I have been saying all along! Just like the illegals who come here and have a kid - their children are NOT citizens, because their parents are NOT citizens!

You are mistaken. The fourteenth amendment to the Constitution is very clear. If you are born in the United States, and you are subject to it's laws, you are a citizen by birth of the United States.

The exclusionary clause (and subject to the jurisdiction thereof) is for the cases of diplomats who are not under the U.S. jurisdiction.

If you don't like it, change the Constitution, but that is the law of the land.

[ExTxMarine]

“If you don’t like it, change the Constitution, but that is the law of the land.”

Please show me where it says that the exclusionary clause is for diplomats!

This is the “law of the land” because no one has directly challenged this view!

If the fourteenth amendment is very clear, then why did all American-born Indians have to get citizenship through a congressional law in 1924?!?!?!

[Red Steel]

There is no doubt about it except for the obtuse Obot-bats who say otherwise with their twisted logic.

[jamese777]

“It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will, therefore, be unnecessary to examine any other.”—James Madison, Founding Father, Framer of the Constitution, 4th President of the United States

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“Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by [the Supreme Court of the United States in their 1898 decision in the case of U.S. v.] Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents. Just as a person “born within the British dominions [was] a natural-born British subject” at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, so too were those “born in the allegiance of the United States natural-born citizens.”—Indiana Court of Appeals, “Ankeny et. al. v The Governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels,” Nov. 12, 2009

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“The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in the declaration that ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,’ contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization. Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization. A person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States can only become a citizen by being naturalized, either by treaty, as in the case of the annexation of foreign territory, or by authority of Congress, exercised either by declaring certain classes of persons to be citizens, as in the enactments conferring citizenship upon foreign-born children of citizens, or by enabling foreigners individually to become citizens by proceedings in the judicial tribunals, as in the ordinary provisions of the naturalization acts.”—US v Wong Kim Ark (1898)

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“The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.”—U.S. v Wong Kim Ark (1898)

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“There may very well be a legitimate role for the judiciary to interpret whether the natural born citizen requirement has been satisfied in the case of a presidential candidate who has not already won the election and taken office. However, on the day that President Obama took the presidential oath and was sworn in, he became President of the United States. Any removal of him from the presidency must be accomplished through the Constitution’s mechanisms for the removal of a President, either through impeachment or the succession process set forth in the Twenty-Fifth Amendment. Plaintiffs attempt to subvert this grant of power to Congress by convincing the Court that it should disregard the constitutional procedures in place for the removal of a sitting president. The process for removal of a sitting president–removal for any reason–is within the province of Congress, not the courts.”—US District Court Judge David O. Carter in dismissing “Captain Pamela Barnett, et. al. v Barack H. Obama, et. al., October 29, 2009

Judge David O. Carter was previously a Lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps. He earned the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart while serving in the Vietnam War.

Judge Carter went on to say: “Plaintiffs have encouraged the Court to ignore mandates of the Constitution; to disregard the limits put on its power put in place by the Constitution; and to effectively overthrow a sitting president who was popularly elected by “We the people”—over sixty nine million of the people.

Plaintiffs have attacked the judiciary, including every prior court that has dismissed their claim, as unpatriotic and even treasonous for refusing to grant their requests and for adhering to the terms of the Constitution which set forth its jurisdiction. Respecting the Constitutional role and jurisdiction of this court is not unpatriotic. Quite the contrary, this Court considers commitment to that constitutional role to be the ultimate reflection of patriotism.”

[ExTxMarine]

“Under the laws of the the land, Obama is a citizen at birth, otherwise known as a natural born citizen.”

So, according to you, any “citizen” is a “natural born citizen?” If this is the case, then why did the founding fathers bother to even put “natural born citizen” and not just put “citizen” in the constitution?

Just because you don’t like the obvious meaning of the words and refuse to listen to the words and explanations of those who drafted the laws on how and what the laws meant, does not make it so! The drafter of the the 14th Amendment stated that this amendment would exclude those who are not citizens, illegals and diplomats!

The application of the amendment in the manner which you and so many other dimwitted fools want it to be is the problem, NOT the wording!

[Las Vegas Ron]

( ! )

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

How can this sentence be confusing to you?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

Only diplomats are not under jurisdiction of the United States by treaty. Thus, if you are not under jurisdiction of the United States, you are covered by diplomatic immunity.

The Snyder Act closed the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" loophole concerning Indians born on reservations or other native ruled territories that were semi-autonomous.

[DJ MacWoW]

I don’t know what the answer is. They are not listening to us. And they don’t intend to. I’m afraid that not enough Americans are awake to the danger either. They think “a couple more years and we simply vote him out”. I’m not so sure.

[Las Vegas Ron]

then why did the founding fathers bother to even put “natural born citizen” and not just put “citizen” in the constitution?

FRiend, doncha know, some here will tell you that osama him self could be the bamsters daddy.....and would still be Constitutionally legitimate.....dude, you really have to get with the program....

Thank you and bless you for your service, FRiend!!

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Citizen at birth = natural born citizen

Those who quote Vattel try to seperate the two phrases.

[DJ MacWoW]

They keep using tired old arguments. Too bad more of them don’t read history instead of leftist talking points.

[bushpilot1]

“Let us appeal to enlightened and disinterested judges. No one is more so than Vattel.” Jefferson

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-foley?id=JefCycl.xml&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=9221&division=div2

“Vattel is one of the most zealous and constant advocates for the preservation of good faith in all our dealings”

Jefferson

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-foley?id=JefCycl.xml&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=9222&division=div2

[Lurking Libertarian]

So, according to you, any “citizen” is a “natural born citizen?” If this is the case, then why did the founding fathers bother to even put “natural born citizen” and not just put “citizen” in the constitution?

No, a naturalized citizen is not a natural born citizen. But, as the U.S. Supreme Court has held, the Constitution "contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization." So if Obama was not naturalized, he is a natural born citizen.

[DJ MacWoW]

What you are saying is that Juan and Conchitas baby, born in Arizona as they crossed the border, is eligible to be President. Think about that.

[Las Vegas Ron]

and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

LOL....here, let me give this a shot......

CITIZENS, NOT NATURAL BORN CITIZENS