USA Fielding M110 7.62mm Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle

Defense Industry Daily ^ | 6/9/2010 | Defense Industry Daily

[ErnstStavroBlofeld]

In this war, snipers matter in close-quarters urban fights. So does penetrating power. Accurate ranged lethality is equally important for squads in open areas, where engagement distances can easily make 5.56mm rounds ineffective. Bolt-action sniper rifles solve these problems, but can get your best people killed in close-up automatic firefights. Semi-automatic weapons have traditionally been less reliable and accurate, but offer the only reasonable approach that covers both extremes.

The result has been the emergence of a hybrid approach, on both a people level and a technical level. On the human end, militaries like the Americans and British are adopting “designated marksman” or “sharpshooter” roles in normal infantry squads, who aren’t full snipers but do have additional training and qualification. On the technical side, gun makers are fielding semi-automatic systems that offer nearly bolt-action accuracy out to 800-1000 meters, but can also be used in closer-quarters firefights. The British have hurried the L129A1 to their infantry squad sharpshooters, but the Americans have a longer running program, which is beginning to ramp up production and fielding…

The M110 is intended to replace the M24 Sniper Weapon System used by snipers, spotters, designated marksman, or squad advanced marksmen in the US Army. In 2006, the Army projected total buy of 4,492 systems. M24 orders continued into early 2010, however, and it seems likely that both will serve together for a few years.

[archy]

I want to know what is wrong with the M14, which is quite accurate out to 1000 yrds and is already in the inventory.

Let me see: the front sights loosen and fall off; in sandy climes the bolt rollers abrade and split until they fall off and CANNOT be replaced in the field without an armorer's tool. Front sling swivels shear off their retaining rivits, the rear sight is maintenance-intensive and the machined rails used for telescopic sight mounting have been found to be inadequate and scope mounts for the M14/XM21/M21/M25 hover the past three decades have been redesigned to use the dovetail for the clip loading slot as a third attatch point for the newer mounts- a neat adaptation, but never really designed for that purpose. Gas pistons were never interchangable between M14s, and the stocks require glass bedding [and annual reworks] to maintain minimal acceptable accuracy limits.

Unfortunately, the four manufacturers of the M14 [Springfield Armory, Winchester, Harrington and Richardson and Thompson-Ramo-Woolridge] have now all either gone out of business, moved out of or downsized rifle or government contract production, or have been absorbed in corporate takeovers. There hasn't been an M14 produced in the US since 1965, and the Springfield Armory machinery was sold off to Taiwan,who used it to begin production of the rifles as their Type 57 rifles at the 205th Armory of Combined Service in 1969, then replaced by the T65, T86 and T91 series of 5.56mm assault rifles.

We've been hard=pressed to keep our remaining M14s in service, though they've been in limited use by the US Navy due to the avaibility of the M76 grenade launcher fitting for the M14, which allows the M14 to launch a line-carrying projectile from ship to ship using a blank cartridge. Since the Carter years, M14s were given away as military aid [FMAP] equipment, to, among others, Israel, the Phillipines, Guatemala, El Salvador and Haiti. Thankfully, the Israelis set up a production line for the M14s that they used as sniper's rifles, or we'd have had no manufacturing source for magazines for our last half-decade of M14 use in OIF/OEF/GWOT. I do not know how our current chilly relationship with Israel will affect that problem in the future.

Is the M14 a servicable piece, suitavle for use as a service weapon, and capable of modification into a match or sniper's rifle? Oh yes, been there, done that.

Have I carried and used the M14 and XM21 and do I know whereof I speak? Yes, indeedy: I went through basic with am M14, carried one [sometimes] during tours on the 5KM *Iron Curtain* zone in West Germany along the Czech and former East German border, then hauled one of four M14s/XM21s I had over two tours of the spas, bars and cathouses of Southeast asia. Yep, I like the M14, and have had a couple of it's semi-auto civvie equivalents. But I am not blind to its faults, nor under the false impression that it is anywhere near state-of-the-art.

It;s still a good rifle, particularly for an individual who takes care of it, bables it, and appreciates it. As a supply-chain NSN item, it leaves much to be desired, though it's still the standard to which its eventual replacement will have to be held.

[archy]

Why don’t any shooters winning at Camp Perry use the M1A anymore?

For the same reason Navy match team shooters were still using Glenn Nelsons supurb match Garands into the late 1980s and early '90s, then finally switched to the match M16A2NM [and Mark Twelve Mod X, but that's another story]

If you shoot the NM course four or five, sometimes six times a day, your scores will be appreciably lower the last time or two you go at it. With the lighter and lesser-recoiling 5,56mm, that's less the case, though shooter fatigue and burnout remains a problem to be overcome.

Now when I can pull off four runs a day, I shoot the first one with a Garand, the second with an M14M, and the last two with an M16 variant. I've even been to an Appleseed shoot, where a kindly and well-intentioned instructor somewhere between 25 and 30 years of age did his best to *teach me how to shoot* the M16A1 I'd brought along that day. Ho ho ho.

[calex59]

I never used the M14 in a desert climate, but I did take delivery of the first M14s to come to Germany in 1961(I was an armorer and turret Mechanic). They seemed like fine rifles and were very accurate as they came out of the box. Having only fired about 2000 rounds or so through one I wouldn’t know about the front sites falling off. I am aware that the plastic hand guards that came with the early ones tended to melt during automatic fire and they removed the selector switch from ours so they would only fire semi-auto. Thanks for the other info.

[archy]

I never used the M14 in a desert climate, but I did take delivery of the first M14s to come to Germany in 1961(I was an armorer and turret Mechanic).

It was my understanding that the Berlin Garrison got the first bunch, the 24th Division's 1st Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry got theirs just after their Mid-July to October 1958 jump into Lebanon during theeir reinforcement of the US Marine detatchment in Lebanon following the assassination of King Faisal II of Iraq by exremist members of the United Arab Republic. The 24th, previously the 11th Airborne Division, got their M14s shortly thereafter, which may have been in the works back when their equipment was being upgraded as an airborne unit.

Third Armored Div. {Elvis Presley's old outfit] was the Division slated to reinforce the Berlin Garrison in the event of trouble there, so I expect they got their their new '14's about the time you got yours. You stationed around Augsburg or Gelnhausen, by any chance?

They seemed like fine rifles and were very accurate as they came out of the box. Having only fired about 2000 rounds or so through one I wouldn’t know about the front sites falling off.

Garands have the same front sight and they do it too, as the retaining screw loosens from repeated firing vibration. The M70 grenafde launcher uses the same sight, but since it's a single-shot weapon, the problem doesn't often arise there.

I am aware that the plastic hand guards that came with the early ones tended to melt during automatic fire and they removed the selector switch from ours so they would only fire semi-auto. Thanks for the other info.

Yep. The early black handguards looked good but had that bad habit. The later ones were fiberglass, and were a bit more heat-resistant, and painted with heat-resistant aluminum paint, a trick we learned from the British, the wooden handguards of their L1A1 FAL rifles being notorious for charring and bursting into flame on the range. Spectucalar, but distracting!

The real answers to the M14s stock problems were the adoption of the M14E2 automatic rifle stock, equipped with a folding front foregrip and longer sling, and the water and rot-proof fiberglass stocks developed for use in Vietnam. There are now a couple of pretty good stocks available for the M14 and M1A, including the VLTOR and Sage units now in use in afghanistan and Iraq, and this one:

[calex59]

I was in the third armored, CCA.

[calex59]

Garands have the same front sight and they do it too, as the retaining screw loosens from repeated firing vibration. The M70 grenafde launcher uses the same sight, but since it's a single-shot weapon, the problem doesn't often arise there.

I fired thousands through Garands and never had a sight fall off. However, I believe you. I know they had problems with them. You would think they would have used a different method on a full auto if they had problems with semi-auto shooting them loose. I wish I could have gotten away with one of the short Garands we had in our tanks when I first got to Germany. BTW, I was stationed at Ayers Kaserne, 13th medium tank battalion, later the name was changed to the 32nd Armor.

At the time we received our M14s I was told that they were the first in Germany. Goes to show that the brass doesn't always tell the truth, doesn't it.

[wku man]

I was not aware of that. Stupid, stupid, stupid! Is there any way to make them semi-auto only so they could be sold through the CMP?

Scouts out! Cavalry Ho!

[WKUHilltopper]

Thank you for your insightful thoughts.

[Squantos]

I use my TRW flavored M1A as my supermatch built for me long ago for leg matches. It is sweet !

[archy]

I fired thousands through Garands and never had a sight fall off. However, I believe you. I know they had problems with them. You would think they would have used a different method on a full auto if they had problems with semi-auto shooting them loose.

There are problems with anything in widespread issue to troops, and small arms are certainly no exception. I've also seen the problems the Germans had with their G1 [FAL] and G3 [H&K] rifles, the Brits breaking thev folding charging handles on their L1A1 SLRs and eventually cutting off their rifles' carry handles, and Saudi NG troops *kickstarting* their G3s when clogged with sand. Nothing is immune from in-service problems, and then along came the M16 family of weapons to solidify my opinions in that regard and keep me busy, hard at work.

I wish I could have gotten away with one of the short Garands we had in our tanks when I first got to Germany. You were lucky to have the M1919 and M37 series Brownings for co-ax guns. We trained with them, then went to M60 tanks with the M73 on board. Which I could keep running, if I had two extra guns to strip for parts. They broke, bent and generally self-disintegrated during use.

BTW, I was stationed at Ayers Kaserne, 13th medium tank battalion, later the name was changed to the 32nd Armor.

We knew Ayers as *The Rock* by the mid-'60s, you sometimes heard it called *Rock Kaserne* by those from Oggsburg and Moonchen.

Kirchgoens is a lot different now., as is my old first home at Sheridan Kaserne in Augsburg. Even the German intel HQ at Pullach in Munich has moved now.

Thanks for the high standards and records you guys set when you were there. It gave us a goal to aim at, something to try to equal, that helped us get the job done. Between you, and us, amd those who came after us, Ivan decided it would have been just a little too costly for the Eighth Guards Army to have come a-visiting in the Federal Republic. These decades later, the Red Flag is down, but the German gold/red/black and chicken still flies. Whatever didn;t get done in SE Asia, we held the line in Europe. You got your Cold War appreciation cert and medal?

At the time we received our M14s I was told that they were the first in Germany. Goes to show that the brass doesn't always tell the truth, doesn't it.

You may or may not have been the very first- I bet the embassy Marines in Bonn got theirs pretty early, too- but you were certainly among the first- and for good reason. Funny to think of those same old sticks being rebuilt and put to good use in the samdbox in the hands of another batch of youngsters wholl put them to that good use.

Thanks, pardner.

[archy]

I use my TRW flavored M1A as my supermatch built for me long ago for leg matches. It is sweet !

And what are you feeding it for the 600-yard targets?

[Squantos]

Messkin match, white box, lake city. M852 Match or M118 Special ball is what I have used and that they handout at Whittington or locally .......

My home load is federal match 168gr HPBT for truck gun.

[calex59]

We trained with them, then went to M60 tanks with the M73 on board. Which I could keep running, if I had two extra guns to strip for parts. They broke, bent and generally self-disintegrated during use.

I also helped take delivery of some of the first M60s, in the summer of 1961. I hated that stupid machine gun and the mount. I loved the old brownings but that new 7.62 just was a pile of junk.

[guitarplayer1953]

7.62X?
7.62X39 AK47
7.62X54 ROMAC pls 3

[B4Ranch]

>>I’ve even been to an Appleseed shoot, where a kindly and well-intentioned instructor somewhere between 25 and 30 years of age did his best to *teach me how to shoot* the M16A1 I’d brought along that day. Ho ho ho. <<

Some young folks are just friendly and helpful towards us older folks. Just doin what Mommy taught them to do.

[calex59]

PS, you must be a member of the Graf and Hoenfels fraternity. Those places are high in my memories of Germany!

[SBprone]

The inherent superiority of bolt rifles was due to extremely true bolts and chambers, finely honed locking lug engagement, custom chamber reamers and ammunition designed to work together, solid bedding of actions in rigid stocks, and free-floated barrels machined to very high standards by the likes of Kreiger, Obermeyer, etc.

When match smiths and armorers began to work with the M-16 about a generation ago it was discovered that this rifle’s bolt with its radial locking lugs was inherently very accurate and a good foundation for an tack-driving match rifle. Since then armorers and civilian tinkerers have experimented with chamber dimensions, bullet shapes and weights, propellants, barrel twist rates, barrel float tubes and adjustable two-stage match triggers. The fruits of all this experimentation have naturally been applied to the larger 7.62mm rifles that use the same basic design features as the M-16.

This new sniper system is only new to the military but the technology has been available on the civilian market for several years.

[MikeSteelBe]

Why do ALL current pistols have a coil spring lever type extractor instead of a leaf spring like the 1911?

Why do ALL current pistols have the feed ramp integral with the barrel chamber instead of the feed ramp as part of the frame like the 1911?

Why do all current full size combat pistols have a staggered high capacity magazine (even in .45 caliber) instead of the single stack like the 1911?

The 1911 is an obsolete dinosaur that the ignorant cling to out of nostalgia like their Harleys and ‘57 Chevy’s. Those oldies are cool and classic, but FAR, FAR from the best tool for the job.

[P8riot]

Why do ALL current pistols have a coil spring lever type extractor instead of a leaf spring like the 1911?

Because it's cheaper to mass produce that way.

Why do ALL current pistols have the feed ramp integral with the barrel chamber instead of the feed ramp as part of the frame like the 1911?

Admittedly a drawback, but some modern 1911's come with barrels with integral ramps. I have owned dozens of 1911's (I currently have 16) and have never had an issue with this.

Why do all current full size combat pistols have a staggered high capacity magazine (even in .45 caliber) instead of the single stack like the 1911?

Why does it take five shots to stop an aggressor instead of one? It's because you know you have all of that extra capacity. I am conscious of the fact that I only have eight rounds, and I practice accordingly. I make every shot count, not just every other one. Large capacity mags are like software. When memory was expensive, programmers wrote more efficient code, but now that it is cheap, programs use a lot more space. I don't see large cap mags as being an advantage, just a personal preference.

The 1911 is an obsolete dinosaur that the ignorant cling to out of nostalgia like their Harleys and ‘57 Chevy’s. Those oldies are cool and classic, but FAR, FAR from the best tool for the job.

The best tool for the job is the one you have with you, and the one you are most proficient with. Only the ignorant would think otherwise.

[MikeSteelBe]

The coil spring is much more durable than the leaf. They quit putting leafs in cars.

A nine in the head beats a .45 in the vest EVERY time. Someone should dig up Wil Bill Hickock and try to convince him you should nver get in a gunfight with a pistol with a caliber less than .40. The big difference in stopping pwer between the .45 and 9mm comes from WWII experiences with military hardball ammo.