A Bad Bet on Carbon (carbon capture and sequestration)

NY Times ^ | May 12, 2010 | ROBERT BRYCE

[neverdem]

ON Wednesday, John Kerry and Joseph Lieberman introduced their long-awaited Senate energy bill, which includes incentives of $2 billion per year for carbon capture and sequestration, the technology that removes carbon dioxide from the smokestack at power plants and forces it into underground storage. This significant allocation would come on top of the $2.4 billion for carbon capture projects that appeared in last year’s stimulus package.

That’s a lot of money for a technology whose adoption faces three potentially insurmountable hurdles: it greatly reduces the output of power plants; pipeline capacity to move the newly captured carbon dioxide is woefully insufficient; and the volume of waste material is staggering. Lawmakers should stop perpetuating the hope that the technology can help make huge cuts in the United States’ carbon dioxide emissions.

Let’s take the first problem. Capturing carbon dioxide from the flue gas of a coal-fired electric generation plant is an energy-intensive process. Analysts estimate that capturing the carbon dioxide cuts the output of a typical plant by as much as 28 percent.

Given that the global energy sector is already straining to meet booming demand for electricity, it’s hard to believe that the United States, or any other country that relies on coal-fired generation, will agree to reduce the output of its coal-fired plants by almost a third in order to attempt carbon capture and sequestration.

Here’s the second problem. The Pacific Northwest National...

--snip--

By contrast, carbon dioxide is a worthless waste product, so taxpayers would likely end up shouldering most of the cost...

--snip--

The third, and most vexing, problem has to do with scale...

--snip--

In other words, we would need to find an underground location (or locations) able to swallow a volume equal to the contents of 41 oil supertankers each day, 365 days a year...

[J Edgar]

This whole thing should be a Comedy Central joke. A caricature of unrealistic political programs perhaps. But no is actually being proposed by grown men in positions of great responsibility! For Kerry it is his norm, but I expected better from Lieberman! They should be thrown into jail for being public frauds living off of taxpayer money!

[USNBandit]

This is like some kind of Mystery Science Theater 3000 nightmare. Storing carbon dioxide underground?! Who comes up with this stuff?

[TigersEye]

An entirely pointless exercise in capital wasting FedGov high-handedness.

Greenhouse theory is pure bunkum.

No Smoking Hot Spot (The Australian)

The Hidden Flaw in Greenhouse Theory

Falsification Of The Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects Within The Frame Of Physics

Harvard astrophysicist dismisses AGW theory, challenges peers to 'take back climate science'

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

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[neverdem]

Newt 2012? President Newt? I don't know, but he needs some serious science & technology advisors.

Prominent Scientist Dr. Happer Testifies to Congress: 'Warming and increased CO2 will be good...

Senator Bob Bennett: What the Tea Party can learn from Jimmy Carter

Jack Cashill: The Senator from Sandy Berger (and Bill Clinton)

Some noteworthy articles about politics, foreign or military affairs, IMHO, FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

[truthfreedom]

I thought that plants liked carbon dioxide, helped em grow. More carbon dioxide = bigger, better plants = more food.

[Cololeo]

Since it is carbon dioxide that gives drinks their fizz, why not donate to the beer manufacturers? We can get rid of CO2 and have fun at the same time. Party like it’s 1999!

[rottndog]

Let’s take the first problem......

Howzabout we deal with the real problem here...C0² causing globull warming/climate change is COMPLETE BARBARA STREISAND!!!!

[Diogenesis]

The $10 Trillion Climate Fraud (Cap-And-Trade and CCX)
Cap-And-Trade: While senators froth over Goldman Sachs and derivatives, a
climate trading scheme being run out of the Chicago Climate Exchange would
make Bernie Madoff blush. Its trail leads to the White House.”

---

“Fannie Mae Chief Executive Officer Franklin Raines, two of his top underlings and select
individuals in the "green" movement were inventing a patented system to trade residential carbon credits.
Patent No. 6904336 was approved by the U.S. Patent and Trade Office on Nov. 7, 2006 --
the day after Democrats took control of Congress. Former Sen. John Sununu, R-N.H.,
criticized the award at the time, pointing out that it had "nothing to do with Fannie Mae's charter, nothing to do with making mortgages more affordable."

"It wasn't about mortgages. It was about greenbacks. The patent, which Fannie Mae confirmed it still owns with Cantor Fitzgerald subsidiary CO2e.com, gives the mortgage giant a lock on the fledgling carbon trading market, thus also giving it a major financial stake in the success of cap-and-trade legislation."

---

“Here comes the next bubble -- carbon trading
Forget CDOs and other inventions of the great credit bubble. That’s all old hat.
Investment bankers are moving on to an area of securities trading that is potentially even
more lucrative, and what’s more, even has a social value – saving the planet.
….According to Mr Schapiro, carbon trading is now the fastest growing commodities
market on earth. Since Kyoto signatories bought in to the cap and trade concept in 2005,
there have been more than $300bn carbon transactions, prompting several investment
banks, including Goldman Sachs and Barclays, to set up their own carbon trading desks.
But that’s just the start. If President Obama and his supporters can institute a cap-and-
trade system in the United States – and that’s a big if for this increasingly marooned
presidency – demand could explode into a $2 to $3 trillion market.

And here’s the great thing about it. Unlike traditional commodities markets, which will
eventually involve delivery to someone in physical form, the carbon market is based on
lack of delivery of an invisible substance to no-one. Since the market revolves around
creating carbon credits, or finding carbon reduction projects whose benefits can then be
sold to those with a surplus of emissions, it is entirely intangible.

“Carbon developers”, many of them employed by large multinationals, travel the world
in search of carbon reduction projects to sell, while firms of carbon accountants have been
established to verify on the United Nations’ behalf that those reductions are real.
The whole thing, though well intentioned, looks wide open to abuse and scams. “

[Venturer]

Speechless at the stupidity of these two supposedly bright men.

[kamikaze2000]

It won’t work of course, but it makes a good sound bite in a campaign ad. That’s reason enough to blow 4.5 billion.

[DontTreadOnMe2009]

Laughable.

As someone else posted, a comedy central joke.

and that network ain’t funny.

[DontTreadOnMe2009]

John Kerry and Joseph Lieberman

Two clueless morons

[Diogenesis]

Follow the money.

Kerry is not stupid and he already has his
second billionaire widow.

[raybbr]

In other words, we would need to find an underground location (or locations) able to swallow a volume equal to the contents of 41 oil supertankers each day, 365 days a year.

I don't know what to say anymore. These are all schemes to make some people a ton of money - all the while, the same people, are shouting about redistribution of wealth.

[DontTreadOnMe2009]

This whole idea of sticking CO2 underground is the most laughable thing I have ever heard of -—

Oh wait

Shooting particles up in the sky to block the sun was even more laughable !

Read “State of Fear” by Michael Crichton

[6SJ7]

These are all schemes to make some people a ton of money...

The people in this case being Goldman Sachs.

"Goldman started pushing hard for cap-and-trade long ago, but things really ramped up last year when the firm spent $3.5 million to lobby climate issues. (One of their lobbyists at the time was none other than Patterson, now Treasury chief of staff.) Back in 2005, when Hank Paulson was chief of Goldman, he personally helped author the bank's environmental policy..."

[SkyPilot]

Hurry up and buy your worthless paper "Carbon Offset" certificates before the Ponzie scheme collapses.

[Condor51]

ON Wednesday, John Kerry and Joseph Lieberman introduced their long-awaited Senate energy bill

Long awaited by whom Frances?

Al Gore & George Soros?