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Thomas Jefferson recommends reading Vattels Law of Nations to John Garland Jefferson 11 June 1790
Virginia law books: essays and bibliographies ^ | unknown | William Hamilton Bryson

Posted on 05/11/2010 5:41:50 PM PDT by bushpilot1

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; founders; naturalborncitizen; obama; thomasjefferson; vattel
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To: El Gato
By its intent, The Grandfather clause also supports NBC being born of two citizens. It was needed because natural citizenship is required, that being inherited. The dirt under Washington's feet did not change. Citizenship did.
61 posted on 05/12/2010 12:12:01 PM PDT by PA-RIVER
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To: El Gato

Another way to view this is writing what the founders could have said if they wanted Native born citizens to be president.

They could have easily stated that those born on US Soil are eligible. Instead, They chose the NBC term with “Citizen” in it . US Citizenship at birth is the definitive qualification. Obama was born with foreign citizenship.


62 posted on 05/12/2010 12:18:24 PM PDT by PA-RIVER
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To: El Gato; rxsid

In the Congressional record natural-born is hyphened. The first English edition(1797) of Vattel using natural-born is hyphened.

Connection?


63 posted on 05/12/2010 2:55:04 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: bushpilot1; All

“I say,that in order be be of the country, it is NECESSARY that a person be born of a FATHER who is a CITIZEN, for if he is born there of a STRANGER, it will be ONLY the PLACE of his birth, and NOT HIS COUNTRY” ... Vattel

(emphases mine)

Speaker of the House of Representatives, Langdon Cheves, in February of 1814:

“The children have a NATURAL attachment to the society in which they are born: being obliged to acknowledge the protection it has granted to their FATHERS, they are obliged to it in a great measure for their birth and education... We have just observed that they have a right to enter into the SOCIETY of which their FATHERS were members. But every man born free, the SON of a CITIZEN, arrived at years of discretion, may examine whether it be convenient for him to join in the society for which he was destined by his birth.”

(emphases mine)

STE=Q


64 posted on 05/12/2010 3:27:14 PM PDT by STE=Q ("It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government" ... Thomas Paine)
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To: El Gato

Absolutely nobody is claiming Obama Sr. was an American citizen. I don’t know why you consider it an issue.


65 posted on 05/12/2010 5:40:56 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (When legislation controls buying and selling, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators)
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To: Sherman Logan
Absolutely nobody is claiming Obama Sr. was an American citizen. I don’t know why you consider it an issue.

In court, unless both parties are willing to stipulate a fact, proof is required. Thus the BC would provide *part* of the legal proof that BHO Sr was not a citizen. That's all I'm saying.

66 posted on 05/12/2010 5:45:59 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: PA-RIVER
They could have easily stated that those born on US Soil are eligible.

And in fact they modified Hamiliton's draft language:

No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a citizen of one of the States or hereafter be born a citizen of the United States.

by incorporating Jay's "natural born citizen" suggestion, to read:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

67 posted on 05/12/2010 6:08:16 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato; Sherman Logan
Thus the BC would provide *part* of the legal proof that BHO Sr was not a citizen

And that BHO Sr was his legal father. Another "hearsay" "fact" that would need legal proof, although that piece could as well be provided by a certified paper copy of the CoLB, provided direct to the court from the Hawaii Vital Statistics office.

68 posted on 05/12/2010 6:12:36 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: kalee

for later


69 posted on 05/12/2010 6:15:26 PM PDT by kalee (The offences we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: El Gato

Our president has stipulated many times that his father was not an American citizen. A non-issue, IMO, but one you’re welcome to obsess about, if you like.


70 posted on 05/12/2010 6:28:00 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (When legislation controls buying and selling, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators)
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To: El Gato

You are making the assumption that “born a citizen” and
“natural born Citizen” are obviously completely different in meaning.

I think it is at least as likely that the change is largely stylistic.


71 posted on 05/12/2010 6:30:04 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (When legislation controls buying and selling, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators)
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To: Sherman Logan
You are making the assumption that “born a citizen” and “natural born Citizen” are obviously completely different in meaning.

I'm assuming they made the choice of "natural born citizen" for a reason.

72 posted on 05/12/2010 9:07:43 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Sherman Logan
I think it is at least as likely that the change is largely stylistic.

Not considering that the "natural born citizen" language was suggested by Jay, in his letter to G. Washington, who just happened to be the President of the Convention.

73 posted on 05/12/2010 9:18:17 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

You appear to be misunderstanding me. I realize the terminology change was made. But you continue to assume the terms mean completely different things, or rather that B is a subset of A.

I see no reason the terms cannot be synonymous.

The presently dominant originalist school of constitutional study does not obsess about what G. Washington, J. Jay or any others of the writers meant when they wrote it. The relevant factor is rather what those who ratified the Constitution took it to mean, since their approval was what put it into effect.

Since I believe neither the Federalist nor Anti-Federalist Papers bring up the issue, the meaning surely can’t be too wildly obscure. Since naturalized citizens were explicitly allowed to hold all other offices, given the specified number of years as a citizen, it is reasonable to assume that the President was by contrast required to be a non-naturalized citizen, a citizen at birth, or a natural-born citizen.

I think we’ve beaten this one thoroughly to death. Have a nice day.


74 posted on 05/13/2010 4:46:19 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (When buying and selling are legislated, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.)
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