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To: tsmith130
"I’ve never understood how ultra-orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel as a state." Because the government is a secular one. If it was run by the Mashiach they would be the biggest supporters. Rebbe Schneerson was in the running for Messiah but he died in 1994.
16 posted on 05/03/2010 6:58:46 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (?)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
Because the government is a secular one. If it was run by the Mashiach they would be the biggest supporters.

Oooooh...I get it now. Thanks!

18 posted on 05/03/2010 7:00:36 AM PDT by tsmith130
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To: Jack Hydrazine

He didn’t die. He wears a different hat and works for Travelocity nowdays.


19 posted on 05/03/2010 7:05:24 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (Is it sedition to defy usurpation?)
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To: Jack Hydrazine; tsmith130
I’ve never understood how ultra-orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel as a state.

The Talmud (in Ketobut 110b) contains a legend that when Israel went into exile, God imposed three oaths upon the world: (1) Jews vowed not to return to Israel en masse and with a "strong hand" (i.e., violently); (2) Jews vowed not to rebel against the nations of the world; and (3) in return, the nations vowed not to persecute Jews too harshly.

This story is one Rabbi's opinion, and is recounted as a legend, not as law. It's not picked up by the later Rabbinic codifiers, such as Maimonidies and R. Yosef Karo. But Neturei Karta and some insane Haredi sects interpret it as binding law that forbids Zionism.

Religious Zionists respond, correctly: (1) this is a dubious story from one Rabbi; (2) unlike at Sinai, neither the Jews nor the nations of the world ever accepted these "vows"; (3) even if these "vows" occurred, the nations of the world broke their vow by murdering millions of Jews, absolving the Jews of their vows; (4) the supposed "vows" only prevent a military invasion of Israel, not peaceful mass immigration -- as Zionism was; (5) the League of Nations recognized the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel in 1922, therefore, Zionism was done with permission of the nations, not in rebellion against them. Finally, and most importantly, according to the Talmudic story these three oaths are only in effect until the appointed time has come. Given Israel's remarkable achievements, it's clear that the appointed time came with the birth of Zionism. If you want more proof, just look at what happened to most anti-Zionist Jews (who lived primarily in Poland, Lithuania and the Ukraine).

47 posted on 05/04/2010 6:49:34 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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