Army Report: GIs Outgunned in Afghanistan

Politics Daily ^ | 04/2/10 | David Wood

[OneWingedShark]

>The M-16 has gone through how many revisions, 4 or 5, and you want to do another? Odd how, for 50 years, the rifle never quite seems to do well, and one more “fix” will do the job...

Much like Communism as a form of government... or our tax code.

>The fact is, as someone pointed out up the line, the Mattie Mattel was another gift to the Leftists from Robert Macnamera. Riflemen shoot it because they have to, not because they want to.

Agreed. If I were in charge of setting up the general load-out for [Infantry] units it would be something like:
P-90 for Room-clearing/CQB units (the short length and high capacity magazine make it ideal in such situations),
Probably a .45LC for the ranged-ops; especially if officer’s handguns were chambered for the .45LC[, regular .45ACP otherwise] (like the Taurus Judge); yes, I’d definitely get rid of the 9mm.

>Personal opinion: I was lucky enough to qualify with the M-14 in boot camp, and even over the years, with experience on the 16, FN, AK-47 and 74, the 14 was the best.

I haven’t had the opportunity to fire the M-14, so I can’t really rate it.

[Favor Center]

“P-90 for Room-clearing/CQB units (the short length and high capacity magazine make it ideal in such situations),”

The round itself is somewhat anemic.

“Probably a .45LC for the ranged-ops;”

I take it “ranged-ops” means “point blank range”?

[OneWingedShark]

>“Probably a .45LC for the ranged-ops;”
>
>I take it “ranged-ops” means “point blank range”?

Point blank IS a range. ;)

[Favor Center]

“Point blank IS a range. ;)”

True, but usually a very short range for something like .45LC. ;)

Don’t take a pistol round to a rifle fight. ;)

[OneWingedShark]

>“Point blank IS a range. ;)”
>True, but usually a very short range for something like .45LC. ;)

Come to think of it you’re right. I have a .22/.410 double barreled [O/U] gun that is awesome to shoot {IMO}.

>Don’t take a pistol round to a rifle fight. ;)

You’re right; I should have caveat-ed with a larger propellant load and appropriate cambering... I have a bunch of .410 sabot rounds that will put a dent in the ~3/16in cast-iron siding of an old hot-water heater. That’s more what I was thinking of... high-speed, but enough mass not to be overly blown-about by the wind. {As long as you’re firing in real-world atmosphere air-resistance and ‘windage’ will be present.}

[Mr. Lucky]

M-1 Garands and Browning Automatic Rifles would probably deliver greater performance at 500 yards than the M-4.

[calex59]

In 1960, I qualified(as did my whole battalion)with some of the first M14s to come on line to those of us in Germany. None of them had selector switches and the reason given was that the hand guards that were made of plastic would melt under auto fire. I suspect the main reason was they didn't want to teach us how to control the beasts under full auto. Still, I would prefer an M14 semi-auto over an M16 or M4. One shot, one kill. Yep, you can carry more ammo with the 5.56 but you need more to drop someone.

I, personally, would have opted for a round similar to the .300 savage, which has better ballistics than the 7.62X39 round, is lighter than the .308(7.62X51)and was an existing round at the time.

Unfortunately, McNamara was the idiot in charge. Putting a brand new untested rifle into combat with the resulting jams and failures to fire should have landed that a**hat in jail. Yes, they got it working eventually but a lot of our boys were killed because their weapons wouldn't work before they did fix the problems with jamming and they still have a weak round that is even weaker in the short barreled M4.

[Favor Center]

“M-1 Garands and Browning Automatic Rifles would probably deliver greater performance at 500 yards than the M-4.”

They also weigh considerably more.

[Joe 6-pack]

"I, personally, would have opted for a round similar to the .300 savage, which has better ballistics than the 7.62X39 round, is lighter than the .308(7.62X51)and was an existing round at the time."

Many years ago I was told I was an idiot because I thought the .250 Savage would make a great compromise round between the 5.56 and 7.62.

Somebody went through a lot of work to develop the 6.5mm Grendel in order to essentially replicate the ballistics of the .250 Savage :-)

[calex59]

Yes, I believe a .250 savage would have worked quite well, but the military, like all bureaucracies, has to do things their own way, usually creating more expense than necessary to achieve the same or, in some cases, poorer results than existing equipment.

[archy]

I’m trying to imagine the accuracy of an AK-47 at 500+ meters...do the bad guys ever hit anything?

I've got an SKS, whhich shoots the same 7.62X39 mm round as an AK, and as far as accuracy goes, it's good for about 100-150 yards. After that, the bullet loses energy fast and drops like a rock.

Y'all should give a try to the RPK, the squad automatic weapon version of the Kalishnikov, most usually found with a 40 or 45-round magazine, a bipod, and a 24-inch-long barrel.

The last one I had would easily keep every round from a magazine on a GI silhouette target at 400 meters, firing about one shot per second on semi. Headshots at 300 were quite possible, but the guns were really meant as automatic weapons to allow squad maneuvering. With a 75-round drum in place [7,62 version, or double-taped 45-round *Royal* magazines for the 5,45mm veRPK74 version] they'll fill that role very nicely, though since the weapon lacks a quick-change barrel, they do overheat to some extent. That's being addressed at the Molot factory even now.

The Russians are no fools. They formerly had one sniper with an SVD per platoon, but that was before Afghanistan and Chechnya. Now it's more like two per squad. And the RPK can also be used with a telescopic sight or NOD if required.

[archy]

“Point blank IS a range. ;)” True, but usually a very short range for something like .45LC. ;) Don’t take a pistol round to a rifle fight. ;)

I would note that some US Marine security detatchments are now utilizing upper receiver assembleys for their M16A3 and M4 rifles that are chambered for the cal.50 Beowulf/ 12.7 x 42 mm Rb round. Embassy restrictions prevent their use of M203 grenade launchers, SAWs or LMGs that might *scare* the local citizens, but the rifle or carbine-based uppers look enough like the common M16/M4 to get by. And they will stop a car or light truck, whe a single magazine fof 5,56mm from the standard rifle may not.

[Favor Center]

The .50 Beowulf is a bear stopper within 100 yards. Definitely not a pistol round. More like a mini .45-70.

[gundog]

Well...a lot of misinformation is out there re: AP. Ted Kennedy running around shouting that 30-30 ammo was AP didn’t help. A lot of old-school Dems figured Teddy wouldn’t lie about a thing like that.