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Glenn Beck, Social Justice, and the Limits of Public Discourse
AlbertMohler.com ^ | 15 March 2010 | Dr Alber Mohler

Posted on 03/15/2010 6:29:32 AM PDT by SLB

Fox News broadcaster Glenn Beck is famous for launching verbal grenades, and he did so again in recent days, calling upon church members to flee congregations that promote social justice. His comments incited an immediate controversy, where far more heat than light has yet been evident. As expected, there is more to this story than meets the eye -- or may reach the ear via the public conversation.

During his March 2, 2010 radio broadcast, Beck said this:

I beg you, look for the words "social justice" or "economic justice" on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can. Social justice and economic justice, they are code words. Now, am I advising people to leave their church? Yes! If I'm going to Jeremiah's Wright's church? Yes! Leave your church. Social justice and economic justice. They are code words. If you have a priest that is pushing social justice, go find another parish. Go alert your bishop and tell them, "Excuse me are you down with this whole social justice thing?" I don't care what the church is. If it's my church, I'm alerting the church authorities: "Excuse me, what's this social justice thing?" And if they say, "Yeah, we're all in that social justice thing," I'm in the wrong place.

Almost immediately, reaction statements emerged with furor, found in press releases and public statements made by figures like Sojourner's editor Jim Wallis and various social justice advocacy groups. Like Captain Renault in Casablanca, various media outlets rounded up the "usual suspects." The resultant public conversation has not been very substantial, but it has offered media magnetism.

Some of those outraged by Beck's statements immediately insisted that social justice is the very heart of the Gospel, while others insisted with equal force that Beck had offered a courageous call for Christians to flee liberal churches that had abandoned the Gospel.

As anyone familiar with incendiary public debates should have expected, though the truth is a bit harder to determine, the issue is indeed worth whatever hard thinking a clarification of the issue requires.

Is Glenn Beck right? That is the question most in the media were asking, along with a good number of Christians who were aware of the debate. With just a few words, Beck, a convert to Mormonism, set the world of American religion into a frenzy of discourse.

At first glance, Beck's statements are hard to defend. How can justice, social or private, be anything other than a biblical mandate? A quick look at the Bible will reveal that justice is, above all, an attribute of God himself. God is perfectly just, and the Bible is filled with God's condemnation of injustice in any form. The prophets thundered God's denunciation of social injustice and the call for God's people to live justly, to uphold justice, and to refrain from any perversion of justice.

The one who pleases the Lord is he who will "keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice" (Gen. 18:19). Israel is told to "do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness you shall judge your neighbor" (Lev. 19:15). God "has established his throne for justice" (Psalm 9:7) and "loves righteousness and justice" (Psalm 33:5). Princes are to "rule in justice" (Is. 32:1) even as the Lord "will fill Zion with justice and righteousness" (Is. 33:5). In the face of injustice, the prophet Amos thundered: "But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream" (Amos 5:18). In a classic statement, Micah reminded Israel: "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8).

To assert that a call for social justice is reason for faithful Christians to flee their churches is nonsense, given the Bible's overwhelming affirmation that justice is one of God's own foremost concerns.

But, there is more going on here. Glenn Beck's statements lacked nuance, fair consideration, and context. It was reckless to use a national media platform to rail against social justice in such a manner, leaving Beck with little defense against a tidal wave of biblical mandates.

A closer look at his statements reveals a political context. He made a specific reference to Rev. Jeremiah Wright and to other priests or preachers who would use "social justice" and "economic justice" as "code words." Is there anything to this?

Of course there is. Regrettably, there is no shortage of preachers who have traded the Gospel for a platform of political and economic change, most often packaged as a call for social justice.

The immediate roots of this phenomenon go back to the mid-nineteenth century, when figures like Washington Gladden, a Columbus, Ohio pastor, promoted what they called a new "social gospel." Gladden was morally offended by the idea of a God who would offer his own Son as a substitutionary sacrifice for sinful humanity and, as one of the founders of liberal theology in America, offered the social gospel as an alternative message, complete with a political agenda. It was not social reform that made the social gospel liberal, it was, its theological message. As Gary Dorrien, the preeminent historian of liberal theology, asserts, the distinctive mark of the social gospel was "its theology of social salvation."

Even more famously, the social gospel would be identified with Walter Rauschenbusch, a liberal figure of the early twentieth century. Rauschenbusch made his arguments most classically in his books, Christianity and the Social Crisis (1907) and Theology for the Social Gospel (1917). In a 1904 essay, "The New Evangelism," Rauschenbusch called for a departure from "the old evangelism" which was all about salvation from sin through faith in Christ, and for the embrace of a "new evangelism" which was about salvation from social ills and injustice in order to realize, at least partially, the Kingdom of God on earth. He called for Christian missions to be redirected in order to "Christianize international politics."

The last century has seen many churches and denominations embrace the social gospel in some form, trading the Gospel of Christ for a liberal vision of social change, revolution, economic liberation, and, yes, social justice. Liberal Protestantism has largely embraced this agenda as its central message.

The urgency for any faithful Christian is this -- flee any church that for any reason or in any form has abandoned the Gospel of Christ for any other gospel.

As I read the statements of Glenn Beck, it seems that his primary concern is political. Speaking to a national audience, he warned of "code words" that betray a leftist political agenda of big government, liberal social action, economic redistribution, and the confiscation of wealth. In that context, his loyal audience almost surely understood his point.

My concern is very different. As an evangelical Christian, my concern is the primacy of the Gospel of Christ -- the Gospel that reveals the power of God in the salvation of sinners through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The church's main message must be that Gospel. The New Testament is stunningly silent on any plan for governmental or social action. The apostles launched no social reform movement. Instead, they preached the Gospel of Christ and planted Gospel churches. Our task is to follow Christ's command and the example of the apostles.

There is more to that story, however. The church is not to adopt a social reform platform as its message, but the faithful church, wherever it is found, is itself a social reform movement precisely because it is populated by redeemed sinners who are called to faithfulness in following Christ. The Gospel is not a message of social salvation, but it does have social implications.

Faithful Christians can debate the proper and most effective means of organizing the political structure and the economic markets. Bringing all these things into submission to Christ is no easy task, and Gospel must not be tied to any political system, regime, or platform. Justice is our concern because it is God's concern, but it is no easy task to know how best to seek justice in this fallen world.

And that brings us to the fact that the Bible is absolutely clear that injustice will not exist forever. There is a perfect social order coming, but it is not of this world. The coming of the Kingdom of Christ in its fullness spells the end of injustice and every cause and consequence of human sin. We have much work to do in this world, but true justice will be achieved only by the consummation of God's purposes and the perfection of God's own judgment.

Until then, the church must preach the Gospel, and Christians must live out its implications. We must resist and reject every false gospel and tell sinners of salvation in Christ. And, knowing that God's judgment is coming, we must strive to be on the right side of justice.

Glenn Beck's statements about social justice demonstrate the limits of our public discourse. The issues raised by his comments and the resultant controversy are worthy of our most careful thinking and most earnest struggle. Yet, the media, including Mr. Beck, will have moved on to any number of other flash points before the ink has dried on this kerfuffle. Serious-minded Christians cannot move on from this issue so quickly.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: beck; glennbeck; lds; mormon; mormon1
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To: reaganaut

As long as they keep it in the church it doesn’t bother the rest of us. It’s when they try to graft in Uncle Sam....


41 posted on 03/15/2010 3:51:43 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The goal was (and to some still is) to make the entire US an LDS theocracy living the United Order. Before Utah was a state that is how it was run and to a large degree still is.

Never underestimate the ambition of the Mormon church.


42 posted on 03/15/2010 3:58:06 PM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's)
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To: reaganaut

I guess that’s why they tolerate Romney, who is quite far from living what they would consider a pure life.


43 posted on 03/15/2010 4:02:07 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I think that is a lot of it. Some see him (or even Glen Beck) as the fulfillment of an old LDS prophecy.


44 posted on 03/15/2010 4:03:39 PM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's)
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To: SLB

I don’t go to church looking for ANY kind of Justice.

I want MERCY shown to me instead!


45 posted on 03/15/2010 7:24:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: wintertime
 

It is hard to determine because the Marxist and Orwellian perversion of the language. In this case it is the words “social justice”.

“Social justice” sounds so warm and fuzzy. Doesn't it? But in the Orwellian word of Marxism words do not mean what they mean. Sow confusion in language and we have a confused people. A confused and rudderless people are more easily controlled.



Anyone who tries to witness to a Mormon will soon find that the words they use do not always mean the same thing to Christians. 

 Below is a list of terms that are important for Christians to know when discussing the truth with Mormons. 

 It is important that you know what the Mormons mean by the same words used by Christians.

ADAM LDS - Father of physical mankind.  Adam is also known as Michael the archangel, the ancient of days, (D&C 116). Bible - the first created man by whom all of humanity descends.  He was not Michael the archangel.
ATONEMENT

 

LDS - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins. Bible - The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2).
AARONIC
PRIESTHOOD
LDS - A lesser priesthood in the LDS church.  It is still used in LDS church practices and is held by the very young, (D&C 107:1, 6, 10). Bible - A priesthood that is no longer necessary now that we have the full revelation of Christ.
BAPTISM LDS - A necessary ordinance for salvation in the Mormon church.  By it sins are washed away. Bible - An ordinance of the Christian church that is not necessary for salvation (Rom. 5:1).
BIBLE LDS - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. The KJV is the official Bible of the LDS church. Bible - the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16).
BISHOP LDS - an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood of the LDS church.  D&C 20:67), Bible - An office held by a male member of the Church.
CELESTIAL
HEAVEN
LDS - The highest of the three levels of heaven where faithful Mormons are exalted to Godhood. Bible - There is no such thing as a celestial heaven.
CHURCH LDS - The LDS church with its organizational structure, laws, and proper name. Bible - The body of believers in the true and living God through Jesus.  It is comprised of those who are redeemed and is not limited to an earthly structure.
DAMNATION LDS - Basically, anything lesser than exaltation (becoming a God). Bible - The state of condemnation, judged by God in eternal hell (Matt. 25:46).
DEVIL LDS - See Satan. Bible - See Satan.
ELOHIM LDS - The name of God the Father. Bible - The Hebrew word for "God."  The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM,"  (Exodus 3:14).
ETERNAL
LIFE
LDS - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom. Bible - Forgiveness of sins and life eternal with God (John 17:3; Rom. 6:23).
EXALTATION LDS - The state of becoming a god in the celestial heaven. Bible - There is no such thing as becoming a God in the Bible.
FALL OF
MANKIND
LDS - A blessing (Mosiah 3: 11-16).  A necessary step in the progression of humanity to the level of Godhood. Bible - The open rebellion of Adam and Eve against God resulting in their condemnation and the fall of mankind.
GOD LDS - One of countless gods in existence.  An exalted man from another world who created the earth who's name is "Elohim."  He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world.  He has a body of flesh and bones.  D&C 130: 22-23. Bible - The one and only God in all the universe, (Isaiah 44:6,8).
GODHEAD LDS - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god. Bible - God Himself, not an office. Three persons in one God. A Trinity: The Father; the Son; and the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL LDS - The laws and ordinances of the Mormon church. Bible - The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of all who would trust in Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
HEAVEN LDS - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else. Bible - The dwelling place of God (1 Kings 8:30). Christians go to heaven.
HELL LDS - The temporary abode in the spirit world between death and resurrection for those awaiting telestial glory, (D&C 76: 84-85, 106).  Hell will come to an end. Bible - the eternal dwelling place of those who rejected the atoning work of Christ.
HOLY
GHOST
LDS - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God, which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on.  It is likened to electricity." D&C 130: 22-23. Bible - Third person of the Trinity. Same as Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).

 

HOLY
SPIRIT
LDS - The presence of God as distinguished from the Holy Ghost who is a god in the mormon trinity. Bible - An equivalent term to Holy Ghost, third person in the Trinity.
JEHOVAH LDS - The name of Jesus in the Old Testament. Bible - The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM,"  (Exodus 3:14).
JESUS LDS - Literal offspring of God the father.  Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth. Bible - Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).
KINGDOM
OF GOD
LDS - Celestial heaven. The kingdom of God on earth is the LDS church. Bible - All the believers of Christ (Matt. 13:41-43).
MARRIAGE LDS - An eternal bonding of husband and wife that continues into the afterlife.  These couples will continue to have children.  (D&C 132:15-20). Bible - the holy covenant between a man and a woman that is broken at death.
MELCHIZEDEK
PRIESTHOOD
LDS - A greater priesthood in the LDS church held by elders, (D&C 107), Bible - A priesthood held by Jesus alone.
PRE-EXISTENCE LDS - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father and mother before we became human. Bible - We did not exist before we came to earth (1 Cor. 15:46).
SALVATION LDS - Two fold meaning:  Simple bodily resurrection of all people.  Also, forgiveness of sins. Bible - Forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and in the future eternal life with God (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 6:23; 10:9-10).
SATAN LDS - The opposer of God, literal son of God, brother of Jesus and all people begotten in the pre-existent spirit world. Bible - A fallen angel who rebelled against God.
SCRIPTURE LDS - Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. Bible - Only the Bible is scripture.
TEMPLE LDS - A present day temple used to practice the ordinances and ceremonies of the gospel of the LDS church on behalf of the living as well as the dead. Bible - The Old Testament building where God dwelt, sacrifices were offered, and holy priestly rites were administered.  There is no longer a need for temples.
TRINITY LDS- Three gods:  a god called the Father; a god called the son; a god called the Holy Ghost. Bible - The one and only God in all existence who is comprised of three persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  See Trinity.

Go to http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/contents for a list of Mormon words and definitions produced by the LDS church.


46 posted on 03/15/2010 7:27:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: UncleHenry
The appropriate scripture passage is Gal 1:6-8,

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

 
 

 

John 6

28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered,
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Galatians 3

1. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

 

47 posted on 03/15/2010 7:30:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut; Utah Binger

United Order ping


48 posted on 03/15/2010 7:31:49 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
 
I wonder what Mormon policies were in their earlier history.
 
 
Well...  this is not on the same SUBJECT; but it DOES point out early history policy practices:
 



 

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

  2 Nephi 5: 21    'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

  Alma 3: 6    'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



 

August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



 1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)



49 posted on 03/15/2010 7:35:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: UncleHenry
 
The irony is that the one trumpeting this message is Glenn Beck, who is the follower of a man (Joseph Smith) who received another gospel from the hands of a supposed angel of light (Moroni).


KJV
 Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
 
 
ANYBODY???
 
Like this fine looking fellow???
 
 
 
 
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 
 

Like THESE guys??
 
 
 
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 
 


 
Ephesians 2:1-2 
1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


 
1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

50 posted on 03/15/2010 7:36:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

And here the Southern Baptists (before they repudiated baseless anti-Negro racism) were pointing somewhat more logically at the sons of Noah as the source of racial divisions (Ham was the one who allegedly had the curse).


51 posted on 03/15/2010 7:39:21 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: SLB
Now, am I advising people to leave their church? Yes! ,BR>
No I'm still fighting trying to pull at lest my parish away from the socialist drivel that is taking over. It is a fight that I'm likely to lose, but it is a fight I need personally to make. (What can I say Catholics are raised to be stubborn). I have gotten involved with church activities. My wife and I have become active with the parish school, that my children attend. I have joined the parish board. I talk with the priest and try to argue that Jesus said to give your money to the poor, not to take someone else's money by force and give it too the poor.

When St Peter was tipped off that the Romans were coming to arrest him he refused to flee Rome. He knew he would not win the fight, and new what the costs of his defeat would be. There are however some fights that simply need to be fought. If not for your own sake, for the sake of those who will rebuild that which you fought for.
52 posted on 03/15/2010 7:39:57 PM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
And here the Southern Baptists (before they repudiated baseless anti-Negro racism) were pointing somewhat more logically at the sons of Noah as the source of racial divisions (Ham was the one who allegedly had the curse).

Logically?

I don't see how ONE of the sons had the 'curse' and the FATHER didn't!

It can be argued that the DNA line of the 'curse' died in the flood.



53 posted on 03/16/2010 4:47:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SLB

“Glenn Beck’s statements about social justice demonstrate the limits of our public discourse.”

But pornography does not. OK.


54 posted on 03/16/2010 4:50:36 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Elsie

A new curse was alleged in this theology because Ham was less discreet than his brothers when Noah, having raised a vineyard post-flood, became intoxicated from over-imbibing wine. Noah in this undignified state apparently felt it was better to dispense with his garments, and the other two sons pulled a robe over him while looking the other way, but Ham (whose name allegedly translates to “burnt black”) looked. Then, the dubious theology went, when Ham got the new curse he became the progenitor of today’s Negros. Southern Baptists repudiated this idea a long time ago, but it figured during the days of American chattel slavery of Negros.


55 posted on 03/16/2010 8:26:50 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

WhatEVER the curse was; it appears that extra-biblical texts are used to justify the reasoning.


56 posted on 03/16/2010 8:47:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Or self serving speculation based on a plausible etymology for a name in this case. My own first reaction as a new believer when I learned about this (it was in personal conversation with a Methodist preacher who was rightly dubious about the idea) was “OK, suppose there had been a curse; is it the duty of Christians to add to it?”


57 posted on 03/16/2010 9:04:45 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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