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Should Christians Use Saul Alinsky’s Tactics in Exposing Corruption?
Townhall.com ^ | March 7, 2010 | Doug Giles

Posted on 03/07/2010 12:28:44 PM PST by Kaslin

A Christian pundit, Dawn Eden, thinks my daughter Hannah Giles and her partner James O’Keefe should not have used Saul Alinsky’s deceptive tactics against ACORN because Saul was “evil,” his methods sneaky, and he dedicated his book, Rules for Radicals, to Lucifer.

In addition, Eden took a swipe at Lila Rose, Planned Parenthood’s main pain in the butt, for being deceptive in her undercover vids which exposed Planned Parenthood’s illegal activity. Oh, and I almost forgot: Dawn also busted on Hannah for being un-Christlike for wearing a miniskirt and dressing like a hooker. Sounds a little catty to me—and a wee bit like Dana Carvey’s Church Lady—but I digress.

First off, Ms. Eden, if you ever drum up the nerve to expose a scandalous multimillion dollar Obama-backed, taxpayer-funded organization for doing illegal crap and then undergo death threats (versus sitting on the sidelines and simply critiquing those who have the cojones to do so) you will find that the lawbreakers are rather reticent in telling journalists, who are intent on exposing and destroying their world, exactly how they’re breaking the law. Yeah, I know. It’s weird, eh?

You’d think that nefarious organizations would just spill their guts, throw up their hands, give up their hard drives, refrain from dumping tens of thousands of documents in a dumpster, and just cooperate to the fullest extent with the FBI and the DOJ, but alas, they don’t because they’re criminals, and criminals, generally speaking, aren’t known for truthfulness, contrition and full disclosure with cops.

Therefore, most of the time when journalists, Christian or not, want to get the 411 on a reprehensible group, they usually have to fly under the radar, you know, by being misleading, going stealth, acting like serpents, slithering in and getting the apple in front of the culprit and seeing if they’ll take the bait. Deception is a given in the truth seeker’s toolbox when it comes to dealing with slippery critters who won’t easily spill the beans. It’s called hunting. Haven’t you ever watched a Jason Bourne movie, seen Barney Fife in action, or read Joshua or Judges? Geez, Dawn. Come to speed, why don’t cha?

For frail Dawn, the deceptive tactics Giles, O’Keefe and Rose employed in exposing crappy cabals like ACORN and Planned Parenthood present a pious conundrum because she sees deceit, in all forms, as evil; according to her read of the Bible, sweet Jesus would never give the thumbs-up to a believer to participate in that kind of devilish activity.

No, for Dawn, we must pray, be more “mature,” take the high road, wait a million years, come through the front door with a press pass around our neck, and tell the twisted that the USA and Jesus would really appreciate it if ACORN and Planned Parenthood would confess their sins, close down their operations, and become a Ben & Jerry’s.

Here’s my take on whether or not Jesus and the Bible are cool with deceit for righteous purposes. First off, when I’m talking about Jesus, I’m talking about the one in the Bible who methodically made a whip and beat the religious hucksters out of the temple (that’s not very Christlike, eh Dawn?), purposely picked fights with sanctimonious toads and political pukes, and instructed his disciples to be “shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves” (Mt. 10:16). Or, as my King Doug Contra Mundus Translation interprets the original Greek text, “be as clever as the Devil.” Yep, good old Jesus said it’s okay to imitate the serpent in regard to cleverness; just be righteous in spirit and desired goals.

From what I know from my own serious Christian kid and O’Keefe (as well as Rose, via several interviews with her), their motivations were pure in that they wanted to sink these two sucky organizations—organizations, mind you, that are on tape aiding and abetting underage prostitution, home loans for multiple whorehouses, money laundering, tax fraud, millions of abortions, and not just any old abortions but abortions for underage girls (without their parents’ knowledge or consent) who have been the victims of statutory rape.

The reason I believe Jesus wouldn’t give a flip about these three heroes’ mad methods but would instead applaud their efforts is because the Scripture doesn’t condemn:

• Rahab, a real whore, for her sleight of hand with the Canaanites • Gideon’s pretense with his small army • Abraham’s lie regarding his wife • King David’s feigned madness before King Achish.

Real life is war, sweetie pie, and I hate to burst your smug balloon, my dear Dawn, but sometimes playing dirty for noble reasons is the right thing to do.

With Eden’s edict banning deception, it follows that Christian cops couldn’t do their fabulous undercover work; Christian soldiers couldn’t wear deceptive camo or take on local dress in order to whack the Taliban; Christian CIA ops would have to wear dove and fish T-Shirts instead of their Simon Templar garb; and the amazing Christians who lied to the murderous Nazis would all be uniformly condemned for fibbing about the whereabouts of precious Jews they were hiding.

Lastly, Dawn, at the end of the day, I believe Hannah, James and Lila will get mad applause in heaven as they are here on earth for exposing ACORN and Planned Parenthood’s hellish practices. I know, as a Christian, I prefer their ways of doing things to your way of not doing them. Amen.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: acorn; giles; hannahgiles; jamesokeefe; military; notaboutthemilitary; obama; plannedparenthood; saulalinsky
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To: fish hawk

(1) Often the subject of judgments in such passages is deeds, not people
(2) Moral evaluations of people should never extend to assertions that they are beyond God’s reach to help.


61 posted on 03/07/2010 2:01:49 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck
“often” is not always. But your points are correct. Did I just correct you? I guess that would be judging .....
62 posted on 03/07/2010 2:06:08 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk

Note that the anti-anti-judgers almost always don’t make the (1) distinction. Their response to the liberal criticism is typically to pound on the bible and say “hell, this book says judge judge judge!” This doesn’t create clarity and it burns bridges.


63 posted on 03/07/2010 2:12:22 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: Kaslin

Only a fool rejects a good tool because one like it was used by a bad person.

alinsky did not create the tactics he codified in his book, he just stripped them to their basic essence and put them into a form the simple minded could grasp.

Deception, misdirection and guile have been tools of war since the first rock was thrown in anger and without a doubt we are at war with the evil that infests the heart and clouds the mind of the left.

And it is a war we will not win if we follow some of our own weak minded and faint hearts who lack the will to fight the enemy with proven weapons.


64 posted on 03/07/2010 2:18:03 PM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (Warning: Sarcasm/humor is always engaged. Failure to recognize this may lead to misunderstandings.)
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To: Kaslin

Fight fire with fire I say.


65 posted on 03/07/2010 2:22:58 PM PST by Virginia Ridgerunner (Sarah Palin has crossed the Rubicon!)
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To: my_pointy_head_is_sharp

The Tea Party is all about race.

There is no need to tell lies about the left.

But it’s OK for the Left to tell lies about the Right. What’s that saying, ‘Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth’?

And CNN just the other day had a chyron that said, ‘Is right-wing extremism on the rise?’

This, after the recent spate of attacks by LEFT-WING wackos.

I know that several, if not all, of the CNN anchors are Leftists, but I never thought that CNN itself would fabricate the news, and imply a reality that’s just not true.


No it’s not ok for them to tell lies either.
We don’t have to tell lies about them if we make our cases it does not need lies
They want people to starve to death (they keep passing legislation that is bankrupting farms the same way other communist have done in the past - this is not a lie )
They want to kill your grandparents (the legislation they are trying to pass will deny them care - this is not a lie)
They want to make everyone a slave (they are selling our freedoms out from under us - this is NOT a lie)
the list goes on and on
these are not lies
we need to scream them from the top of lungs so that it sinks in to the people who snooze while our freedoms are taken from us.
There is no need to lie the truth is horrible enough.


66 posted on 03/07/2010 2:25:41 PM PST by Lera
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To: HiTech RedNeck
This verse: first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Does not this imply that after one casts out the beam out of his own eye he would be free to judge his brother?

67 posted on 03/07/2010 2:45:27 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk

This is about correcting a specific misdeed.


68 posted on 03/07/2010 2:47:03 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I think the government shoulddn’t be putting out bait so that otherwise suseptible men should fail who weren’t violating the law previously. I think the courts were making increasingly big stinks about such practises and there-fore they were wisely scaled back. On the otherhand, if one smells legitimate smoke, one needs to investigate where the fire is!


69 posted on 03/07/2010 2:54:05 PM PST by mdmathis6
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To: HiTech RedNeck
What does that have to do with my question? If I'm cleansed, no matter how small or big, I can judge. (according to that scripture) You can hem haw all you want but that is the implication.
70 posted on 03/07/2010 3:11:17 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk

Why don’t you read the scripture first before you buffalo? What would possibly correspond to a single plank or mote except a specific sin? Because all commit sins. Jesus is not offering a “become a blanket judge” key to you on this side of glory.


71 posted on 03/07/2010 3:13:53 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

What was unrevealed about the “event details”.?...The money changers were taking money at high rates of exchange in exchange for the “temple shekel” which could only be used to pay the yearly “temple tax”. This dishonored God making HIM out to be a thief!


72 posted on 03/07/2010 3:29:34 PM PST by mdmathis6
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To: mdmathis6

Could there have followed Zacharias like scenes where the cheating changers promised to make good on the excess they charged? Was everybody in the temple gouging on rates, or only some of them? How about those set up in surrounding areas but not the temple? Where did the collected proceeds and the unused temple shekels end up going?

None of that is in the bible account.


73 posted on 03/07/2010 3:35:28 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

My post was in support of Christ in doing what he did and why as well as the restraint he actually showed...I have no doubt it made an impression on a few there! I would like to think some were “beaten” into repentence...many Christians living today were saved out of situations where God seemed to be taking them to the ‘woodshed”!


74 posted on 03/07/2010 3:44:16 PM PST by mdmathis6
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To: Kaslin; All
Should Christians Use Saul Alinsky’s Tactics in Exposing Corruption?

Yes. It's always wise to employ the tactics of a man who dedicates his life's work to Lucifer.

Why would Christians need Jesus?

Do I really need the sarc tag?

75 posted on 03/07/2010 4:24:01 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (let the rich eat the rich.)
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To: humblegunner
While I would not call Alinsky brilliant, it is because I disagree with the premise of his tactics.

Isolation of the person stifles debate on the issues by rendering even the good ideas a person has moot because of the source.

That does not mean Alinsky's tactics are not effective among an unaware, media driven population (they are), and I have even seen them used right here on FR.

Dismissing an enemy's methods because you disagree with their cause will get one no where.

There are many behaviours our opposition engage in which should be sufficient in and of themselves to cause Alinsky style isolation among the politicians, but the media routinely dismiss or ignore such behaviours among some while calling for the resignation of others for the same behaviour (or less).

The problem si one of perception, and Alinsky merely compiled ways to manipulate that perception in the public mind.

76 posted on 03/07/2010 6:56:55 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: married21; fish hawk; Kaslin
Personally, I am pondering whether they are more like papparazzi from the tabloids, with an unusual target, or whether they are wiser/of better character than that.

To me they seem more like Eliot Ness hitting Al Capone's joints; however, instead of breaking the place up with axes, they destroy the foundations online.

77 posted on 03/07/2010 8:27:50 PM PST by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others.)
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To: Smokin' Joe; humblegunner
Isolation of the person stifles debate on the issues by rendering even the good ideas a person has moot because of the source.

The left uses these tactics because they're not interested in a debate on the issues; they're interested in victory. They have no genuine interests in truth or fair play. The ends justify the means.

Suppose a thug attacked you. If you wrestled a gun or a knife from the criminal, and they continued the assault, would you kill them with their own weapon?

78 posted on 03/07/2010 8:42:13 PM PST by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others.)
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To: fish hawk; HiTech RedNeck
If I'm cleansed, no matter how small or big, I can judge.

We will one day judge the Angels...

79 posted on 03/07/2010 8:48:34 PM PST by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others.)
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To: Lera

Of course, I wasn’t advocating actual lying. It was just a rhetorical question. But the Left gets away with actual lying in their chyrons, which I don’t think I’ve ever seen before. I’ve seen the Leftist anchors with their outrageous statements (we all have), but never before in a chyron. How do they get away with that? And why does no one call them on it? Where are the Conservative leaders (or Republicans, at the very least)? Why is no one calling CNN on their lying chyron? They need to prove it, if they’re going to make outrageous accusations like that.


80 posted on 03/07/2010 9:45:00 PM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (The Wright Bros never imagined that in the future we would all be stripping naked in order to fly.)
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