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Jesus' Return (for the Rapture of all who belong to Him) is Very Near
The Bible at Bible.com ^ | Today Feb whatever it is, 2010 | self

Posted on 02/27/2010 8:02:16 PM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt

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To: aruanan

It is not a new revelation of God. In fact, the basis for a pretrib rapture and 7 year tribulation goes back not to Revelation, but to Daniel, where God sets out the timetable of all human history.

And where some Jews may have seen the separation between Christs first and second coming, many more did not. Even His own disciples did not understand until after the Resurrection. They were continually looking for Christ to establish His kingdom and did not understand the death and Resurrection first. They had to be convinced of His Resurrection on the first Easter, rather than excitedly looking forward to it.

A similar situation exists today. Some of us understand (we think, because I am not arrogant enough to think I comprehend the whole counsel of God) that there will be a brief interval between Christs coming for the Church and Christ coming with the Church, while the majority do not.

Fortunately, we will no longer see through a glass darkly very soon! Either way, if we claim the atoning death of Christ and His Resurrection as the basis of our salvation, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and all other differences will fade away in the Light of His coming.

Whatever happens, and whenever it does, I am excited for the Glory about to be revealed!


321 posted on 02/28/2010 5:43:06 AM PST by Mom MD (Jesus is the Light of the world!)
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To: Mom MD

Yup. I can’t get over the fact that He died for me. I hope I never get over it.


322 posted on 02/28/2010 5:43:24 AM PST by RoadTest (Wealth isn't obscene. Poverty is obscene. - Thomas (man of few but dynamite words) Sowell)
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To: IamCenny; Freedom'sWorthIt
Can you point out some facts showing where earthquakes are increasing in frequency? There are always earthquakes, everyday, around the world, how is it any different from 200 years ago, or 400 years ago? Just because more are being recorded, doesn’t mean that there are more earthquakes than there were 400 years ago

Here's a different take on it, if you will.

Perhaps the Bible is referring to an increase in KNOWN earthquakes. 2500 years ago, I doubt very many people in the Holy Land knew of any earthquakes shaking South America (or anyplace else for that matter) around. In modern times, with near-instant news reports beamed by satellite to every corner of the globe, we know about every major earthquake that happens anywhere in the world even as it is happening.

Just a thought for ya.


323 posted on 02/28/2010 5:50:26 AM PST by reagan_fanatic (The liberals are asking us to give Obama more time. Is 25 to life enough?)
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To: blackbart.223

“I just don’t understand this morbid fascination about the end. “

I don’t get it either. People obsessed with end time passages are myopic and self-centered. Instead of doing good works they’ve got their noses buried in Biblical minutiae. This infatuation of hooking your star to some kind of “rapture” cult is destructive to the spirit.


324 posted on 02/28/2010 6:03:32 AM PST by sergeantdave
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To: Star Traveler; aruanan; B-Chan
Here's an alternate viewpoint:

Raptured Or Not? A Catholic Understanding

Raptured or Not?
A Catholic Understanding

“What is the Catholic teaching on the Rapture?” It was over 30 years ago that a student in my Scripture class asked me that question. Drawing on all my years of Catholic education (kindergarten through the seminary and doctoral studies), I replied, “The what?” I had never heard of it.

In the intervening years, talk of the Rapture has become much more pervasive in our culture. Through radio and TV preachers, the Moral Majority movement of the 1970s and 1980s, the turn of the millennium in the year 2000, and the phenomenal success of the “Left Behind” series of novels (recently completed at volume 12 and earning a cover story in the May 24, 2004 issue of Newsweek magazine, it is likely that few Catholics today would share my response. They would, however, probably still be a bit puzzled by it, and ask another question as well, “Will we, as Catholics, share in the Rapture?”

In this Update we will address these questions. We will begin by looking at the meaning and origin of the Rapture doctrine. Then we will briefly consider the key biblical passage which is foundational to it. Finally, we will highlight some problem areas it presents.

The Rapture doctrine: what and when?

But what do we mean by “the Rapture”? The word can be used in different ways. Spiritual writers have used it for mystical union with God, or our final sharing in God’s heavenly life. This is not the sense we are using it in here; we are using it in a much more specific way.

For many American fundamentalist Christians, the Rapture forms part of the scenario of events that will happen at the end of the world. While differences exist among various groups, the more common view goes like this: At the end, Jesus will come on the clouds of heaven and the righteous (“the saints”) will be raptured, that is, caught up into the air, to be with Christ. They will be separated from sinners who will remain on the earth to endure a period of great suffering (the Tribulation).

After this, Jesus will rule on earth for 1000 years (the Millennium); finally, then, Jesus comes at the end in judgment (the parousia) and will inaugurate the new heavens and the new earth. The Rapture is significant, then, as the first of the events that mark this “end of the world.” This scenario appears as such nowhere in the New Testament; it is put together through a particular interpretation of various and scattered texts.

While speculation about the end of the world is as old as Christianity, this particular scenario is not. In fact, it is not yet 200 years old!

Origins of the Rapture

The Rapture seems to have been invented by a British religious figure named John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). He was ordained in the Church of Ireland and worked there to convert Catholics away from their folly. He was extremely pessimistic about what he saw as the state of the world and the state of the Church. He eventually left it, joining a dissident group called the Plymouth Brethren of which he soon became a prominent leader.

About 1830, he began teaching that Jesus’ coming at the end of time would be preceded by a “rapture of the saints.” Some members of his own Brethren community objected that this was not biblically founded, but Darby dismissed any criticism. It had, he claimed, been revealed to him by God.

He would eventually distance himself from this group and travel extensively in the 1860s and 1870s in Europe, the United States, and Canada, where his views were very influential. (Especially important is their appearance in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was printed first in 1909. The 1967 edition is still in print and is very popular in many Protestant fundamentalist circles.)

Despite Darby’s denials, scholars have suggested several possible influences on his Rapture views. In 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland, a 15-year-old girl, Margaret MacDonald, a follower of a charismatic Scottish preacher, Edward Irving, attended a healing service at which she saw a vision of a two-stage return of Christ. Darby adopted and expanded her vision.

Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. In 1827, it was translated into English by none other than Edward Irving, an acquaintance of and possible influence on Darby. Given Darby’s hatred of Catholics, this possible influence adds an ironic touch!

The ‘Rapture text’ in Scripture

Those who propose the Rapture maintain that it is found in Scripture. From its first appearance, as we have seen, others have questioned this. What are we to think?

Written by Paul from Corinth, about 50 or 51 A.D., less than 20 years after the death of Christ, 1 Thessalonians is commonly considered the oldest book of the New Testament. It is clear that these earliest Christians were eagerly expecting Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. As time went on and this was delayed, two pastoral problems emerged that Paul addresses in these lines.

The first is the question of when. Paul tells them that they “know very well” that we do not know the time of the end; it will come like a thief in the night. This becomes a truism throughout the New Testament, appearing in the Synoptic Gospels (Mt 24:42,44; Mark 13:21-23, 32-33; Luke 12:39-40; 17:20-24; 21:34-35); Acts of the Apostles (1:6-7); the Letters (our passage and 2 Peter 3:9-10); and even in the Book of Revelation, not once but twice (Rv 3:3; 16:15)! Needless to say, this clear teaching has been consistently ignored by many up to the present day.

The second question seems more urgent. Since Christ’s coming was delayed, some of the community had died. Those who were left became worried: Would the dead lose out in some way at Christ’s return? Would they be at any disadvantage?

In describing Jesus’ return, Paul combines imagery drawn from two sources. From biblical apocalyptic (e.g., Daniel 7:13), he gets the coming on the clouds of heaven with the angelic trumpets. From his Greco-Roman experience, he gets the imagery of an arrival of a king on a state visit (in Greek, parousia); a joyful multitude goes out to meet him on the road and accompany him back to the city.

The dead will rise first and then we, the living, will be “snatched” up to join them in the air. Many pagan epitaphs of the time spoke of the living “being snatched” away by death. Here Paul speaks of our “being snatched” up to join the Lord and to welcome him at his return.

In the ancient world, the “air” was a scary place filled with unseen beings, many of them hostile. Together with Christ, there will be nothing to fear. Paul means this as a message of comfort and consolation for the Thessalonians. Christians do grieve the loss of their loved ones, but they should not do so “as others do who have no hope.”

The passage is about Jesus’ return in glory at the end of the world. The New Testament knows of only one such return. There is no “first” second coming!

Further, the passage says absolutely nothing about being “separated from” sinners; the whole thrust is exactly the opposite. It is about “being together with” the dead. There is no suggestion that once we meet Jesus “in the air” that he then turns around and goes back, taking us with him, to return later.

The conclusion is clear: There is no basis whatsoever in this passage for a doctrine of the Rapture. To see such a doctrine here is a complete distortion of the biblical text. If we were to examine other biblical texts often cited in support of this doctrine (e.g., Mt 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-35; Rv 3:10), the results would be the same.

Church teaching on the Rapture

A s Roman Catholics, we might ask, “Has the Church censured anything regarding the Rapture doctrine?” The answer would have to be no and yes.

No, to my knowledge, there has never been an explicit statement relative to the Rapture. But as we have seen, the Rapture forms part of a particular millennial expectation based on a particular use of biblical texts. Yes, the Church has explicitly rejected both this kind of speculation and this way of interpreting the Scriptures.

The Council of Ephesus (431) denounced it as “a deviation and a fable.” It was denounced again in 1516 at the Fifth Lateran Council. In 1824, the work of Manuel Lacunza (noted above) was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. In 1941 and 1944, responding to questions from the Archbishop of Santiago, Chile, the Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) again rejected this kind of millennial speculation with explicit reference to the work of Lacunza. As recently as April 22, 1998, with the turn of the millennium approaching, Pope John Paul II warned again against this way of thinking.

In interpreting biblical texts, the Church has stressed that it is essential that we take account of their literary genres since truth is expressed differently in different types of writing (Vatican II: Dei Verbum #12; Catechism of the Catholic Church #110).

In its 1993 document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, the Pontifical Biblical Commission both reaffirmed this (Section I-A) and rejected as inadequate the so-called “fundamentalist” interpretation at play in the Rapture doctrine and scenario (Section I-F).

As John Paul II expressed it on April 22, 1998, “We know that the apocalyptic images of the eschatological discourse about the end of all things should be interpreted in light of their intense symbolism.” It is not language that should be taken literally.

Problems with the Rapture

We might conclude by asking, “What view of the world is encouraged, even legitimized by the Rapture/Left Behind ideology?” It can be fairly described as an extremely pessimistic, “outsider mentality.” It feels “left out” of the world and of society, so it eagerly anticipates leaving all of that behind. In fact, God shares their disgust, and the signs are clear: God is coming soon to put an end to it. The world itself is doomed to destruction, so there is obviously no point in caring for it or protecting it now.

Everyone left behind on the earth at the time of the Rapture will be subject to the sufferings of the Tribulation. The violence envisaged and described (as in the “Left Behind” novels) is almost pornographic in detail.

The spirit of vengeance is much in evidence as those “left behind” are subjected to extreme anguish. The hope that the earth and most of its inhabitants will soon be destroyed is a cause of happiness and rejoicing among those who are eager to be separated from sinners and “raptured” out of the world because then they will be with the Lord.

To this we might juxtapose another, very different, world view. The world of God’s creation is basically good (Gn 1). Though it is marred and broken by sin and death, it is still created in, through and for Jesus Christ (Col 1:15-20). The world shares in the redemption of God and even now is groaning, awaiting the fullness of redemption (Rom 8:19-23) which will be manifested as a (re)new(ed) heavens and (re)new(ed) earth (Rv 21:1-5).

God sent the Son into this world out of love to show us the way to life. Jesus did not separate himself from sinners but, on the contrary, they seem to have been his preferred company. If we want to be with the Lord, we should be together with sinners.

In all the Gospels, he is criticized by the self-righteous, “He eats with publicans and sinners” (e.g., Luke 5:29-32), but, as he assures us, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 just (Luke 15:7,10). The day of the Lord’s second coming is delayed, in fact, precisely because “ [the Lord] is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9-10). Jesus’ harshest words are reserved for those who think they are secure and look down on others (e.g., the Pharisee and the publican, Luke 18:9-14).

Even though we may long for the day of the Lord’s return in glory, the time of that return is unknown. Not even Jesus knows; only the Father knows (Mark 13:32). We are warned against false prophets who say that the end is near (Mt 24:23-26), but Jesus assures us, “I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Mt 28:20).

Until that time, we are to be about the Lord’s work, “Blessed are those servants whom the master will find at work when he arrives” (Mt 24:46). If we look too eagerly for Jesus’ return on the clouds of heaven, we may pass him by too often on the street (Mt 25:31-46). It would seem that what gets left behind most in the “Left Behind” mentality is the whole Bible.

What’s a Catholic to believe?

We began with several questions: What is the Catholic teaching on the Rapture? There is none; there is no traditional Christian teaching on the Rapture. It is a late, and rather suspect, arrival on the scene.

Will Catholics be raptured? No, of course not, but then neither will be anyone else. But we are left behind with one final—and most important—question. It is not about the future, the question, Will I be taken up by the Rapture? Rather, it’s more about a present question: Will I be taken in by it?

Michael D. Guinan, O.F.M., Ph.D., is a professor of Old Testament, Semitic languages and biblical spirituality at the Franciscan School of Theology in Berkeley, California.

325 posted on 02/28/2010 6:15:00 AM PST by Ultra Sonic 007 (To view the FR@Alabama ping list, click on my profile!)
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To: SnakeDoctor
Earthquakes alone are insufficient to definitively predict the timinig of His return.

True.

But I've got some copies of plane tickets, credit card reciepts, and a reservation at Motel 6.

326 posted on 02/28/2010 6:15:13 AM PST by Lazamataz (Seriously. The only way Obama can possibly pull this out is to declare Martial Law before November.)
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To: pissant

Yep, the rapture has been coming later this year for the past 500 years.


327 posted on 02/28/2010 6:17:35 AM PST by glorgau
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To: American Constitutionalist
I don't disagree, but for the saved the end times are something that can be looked forward to without spending a lot of energy looking for, because when they come God will let us know quite clearly, there will be no need for guessing if this spate of earthquakes or the next outbreak of disease or a series of hurricanes is the end, it will be something beyond normal and inexplicable by our meager abilities to understand.

And to be honest sanding around screaming the end is near, repent and be saved is not the best path to bringing others to Christ, especially when time and again the notion has proven to be false. That just makes Christians look a little foolish when it doesn't happen and a being on a path to darkness should be reason enough without the end of the world being brought into play....

328 posted on 02/28/2010 6:18:43 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Palin bashers on freerepublic, like a fart in Church...)
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To: Random Access

Random Access,

Interesting. In case someone else is interested in knowing your Jesus, could you provide scripture or documentation that substantiates what he says to expect at death? At end times?

Thanks.


329 posted on 02/28/2010 6:21:17 AM PST by ru4liberty
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To: Ultra Sonic 007

Pretty good, though he should have emphasized that Paul was not talking apocalyptic imagery when writing to the Thessalonians. This letter antedated the apocalyptic imagery of Revelation by sixty or seventy years. There’s no reason that what he described should be taken any less literally than what the angels said to the witnesses of the ascension or the ascension itself.


330 posted on 02/28/2010 6:23:31 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Every “prophet” since the first one has used that line.
331 posted on 02/28/2010 6:26:39 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: reagan_fanatic

No, the quakes are just birth pangs.

BTW, many false doctrines take something truthful, then distort it so as not to glorify Christ.

In many New Age distortions of truth, there is looking forward to a time when some sort of shift occurs linking spiritual and physical.

We also are told in Scripture that in the last days, old men would dream dreams and young men would have visions.

In these descriptions, it doesn’t necessarily imply these are all caused by God the Holy Spirit, only that they will exist.

Also many lieing wonders will occur, so deceptive that if it weren’t for God the Holy Spirit, even the elect would be deceived.

There might be some common truths here, where the quakes aren’t simply being tectonic plate shifts caused by physical magma flux. There might be other mechanisms ongoing which we really don’t need to know about and sill fulfill His Plan for us.


332 posted on 02/28/2010 6:35:02 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt

INDEED.


333 posted on 02/28/2010 6:40:04 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

BOTH WAYS . . . two different times . . . those greatly in Love with Him will know about the first and come back with Him the 2nd.

It’s strongly advised to be ready for the first.


334 posted on 02/28/2010 6:40:55 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mom MD

INDEED.


335 posted on 02/28/2010 6:42:51 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007
The Council of Ephesus (431) denounced it as “a deviation and a fable.” It was denounced again in 1516 at the Fifth Lateran Council.

Your author goes on at length, about the origin of Protestant beliefs regarding the rapture being less than 200 years old. Odd, then, that denunciation would have occurred in 431, and again in 1516.

It would appear that the learned Mr. Guinan has destroyed his own argument, here.

336 posted on 02/28/2010 6:43:25 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Mom MD

INDEED.


337 posted on 02/28/2010 6:43:56 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: pissant

Thanks for the suggestion but I don’t believe I will need to pack anything. I will be clothed in the blood of the Lamb and that’s all any of us will need. By the way, I read alot of your comments here on FR and although I occasionally disagree, I never mock you.


338 posted on 02/28/2010 6:44:20 AM PST by Russ (Repeal the 17th amendment)
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To: terycarl

Believing a lie;
Believing hysterical historical revisionism;

to joing a bureaucratic bound political power-mongering tyrannical elitist ran RELIGIOUS club . . .

is not advised as a route to God, nor to please God.

Christ was quite fierce in His attitude about such groups 2000 years ago.


339 posted on 02/28/2010 6:45:51 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: NavyCanDo

INDEED.


340 posted on 02/28/2010 6:46:34 AM PST by Quix ( POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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