Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty

London Daily Telegraph, U.K. ^ | Tuesday February 16, 2010 | Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

[jpl]

The council of EU finance ministers said Athens must comply with austerity demands by March 16 or lose control over its own tax and spend policies altogether. It if fails to do so, the EU will itself impose cuts under the draconian Article 126.9 of the Lisbon Treaty in what would amount to economic suzerainty.

[buwaya]

Oh, I know my history, thanks. I think way too many Greeks don’t.

Greece was almost overrun by the Reds in the 1940’s and saved by the US - there’s no way the Greek government of the day could have stood them off without US financing at the very least, it would have been a South Vietnam situation. The fact is that its Americas fault that Greece is as wealthy and free as it is, and did not have to pass through a phase like Romania, which was its likely fate.

The problem with Greece is that in a sense the Reds won the peace subsequently - they prompted a deep popular distaste for America and Americans. Which should enrage Americans doubly, seeing as so many Greeks were welcomed in the US and did so well here. It is gross ingratitude on so many levels.

Add this to the seeming Greek tendency to personalize politics more than most.

[bert]

Why is the EU evil? The action proposed might be draconian in the short term, but the long term must be defended by the union.

The EU is an experiment and must and will be tested. The tests will determine if change is possible or needed.

[WhistlingPastTheGraveyard]

They should have a fixation on him. He’s evil in its most perfect form.

[SevenofNine]

Does that mean Greece be placed under DOUBLE Secret probation

[SmokingJoe]

“The EU is evil. Leave now, Greece.”

You are kidding, right?
Exactly where would Greece go?
Without the EU, Greece would still be a third world country, with dirt roads and crap infrastructure. Greece can thank the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of free EU money(mostly thanks to the Germans), that brought Greece from it's 3rd world status to its first world status today.

[anonsquared]

Not necessarily.

Greece can declare itself free of the EU, eliminate taxes on business except for sales tax, eliminate taxes on pensions, and open the door to anyone with an American passport to emigrate to Greece and enjoy FREEDOM.

How many Americans would empty their retirement accounts to buy a home there, sit back soaking up the sun and ouzo, whilst having their Social Security check direct deposited into a Greek bank?

[rintense]

Do you really think if someone started a war with an EU country, the EU would come to its rescue? This was nothing more than a monetary arrangement, brokered by power lust, denationalization, and one government.

[Ben Mugged]

From the Daily Mail:

But Ruth Lea, economic adviser to the Arbuthnot Group, warned that Greece should be kicked out of the eurozone.

She said: 'It falsified vital data in order to join the euro, its public sector is bloated, tax evasion is a way of life and it has made little attempt to sharpen up its economy in order to thrive within the eurozone.

'For the sake of the long-term viability of the eurozone, it would be far better to evict Greece now and direct the beleaguered country to the IMF for some long overdue economic discipline.'

[Diplomat]

You are the like democrats, all you do is complain that its someone else’s fault.

Did the Germans make you guys print more money? Did the Germans make you lie in your accounting for years now to hide Greece's violation of the EU charter? Did the Germans elect your socialist leaders? Did the Germans elect your past socialist leaders? Did the Germans infiltrate your country and make it so that Greece is the largest welfare recipient in all of the EU? Did the Germans make Greece hire Goldman Sacks to conceal the fraud Greece engaged in?

What happened to you guys, you used to be cool? Now you are nation of leeches and beggers, more slaves than freemen. Leonidas is rolling over in his grave.

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

....so what do you think of your big government Socialism now Greece? :D

Socialism is fun until you run out of other people's money to spend, and then find yourself surrounded by snarling welfare addicts.

[Mister Muggles]

Huh?

[blam]

Suzerainty (pronounced /ˈsjuːzərənti/ or /ˈsjuːzəreɪnti/ RP, or /ˈsuːzərənti/ GA) occurs where a region or people is a tributary to a more powerful entity which controls its foreign affairs while allowing the tributary vassal state some limited domestic autonomy.[citation needed] The superior entity in the suzerainty relationship, or the more powerful entity itself, is called a suzerain. The term suzerainty was originally used to describe the relationship between the Ottoman Empire and its surrounding regions. It differs from sovereignty in that the tributary has some (often limited) self-rule. A suzerain can also refer to a feudal lord, to whom vassals must pay tribute.

[Hawthorn]

>> It will be very interesting to see how the Greeks respond to this. <<

Here’s what I think probably will happen, regardless of whether the Papandreou government gives into the EU:

1. truly terrible rioting in the streets of Athens and other Greek cities

2. attacks on the EU’s local office and on the German, French, British and American Embassies

3. burning of German banks and other foreign businesses

4. whopping declines in the Euro/USD and Euro/BP exchange rates

5. Greek economic misery that lasts for years

It also seems within the realm of possibility that Greece will pull out of NATO and that tensions with Turkey will escalate to the boiling point, up to and including military confrontation in Cyprus or along the Greek-Turkish border.

(And wouldn’t the Turks love to reclaim Salonika after so many years!)

[buwaya]

- Lots of wealthy Europeans already do that. More so in Spain and France, but plenty in Greece.
- Greece isn’t that cheap.
- Greece is most unlikely to pass any law priveleging Americans. We are their favorite bogeymen.
- One can always hope for any given country waking up to economic reality, and adopting rational economics, but unfortunately it is quite rare. When rent-seeking has triumphed as completely as in some European countries it is extremely difficult to reform.

[colonialhk]

WE cant help this time....it is ....”special” and we would never see this happen in Germany or France who broke the debt rules for years. Spain is next.

[bert]

Why is that bad? Trade and ease of regulations among the European nations is not bad in my view. Eliminating the myriad of currencies is a good thing if there is to be economic growth and free travel across the various boundaries.

I would really hate having to convert my Tennbucks to Texas or Utahbucks every time I traveled on business or vacation.

We don’t know yet if the Euro Union will be a success in the present form but stress like that with Grece will produce change toward a final outcome

[The KG9 Kid]

"... Did the Germans infiltrate your country and make it so that Greece is the largest welfare recipient in all of the EU?"

Well, yes. April 6 – April 30, 1941.

The Italians and Bulgarians helped.

[NeoCaveman]

You are comparing a natural union with the EU which is an unnatural one.

[Hawthorn]

>> California, along with much of the rest of this country, is galloping toward the same miserable outcome. <<

Well, at least California has this advantage over Greece:

It wasn't ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire for 600-or-so years.

But a little voice tells me that rule by an Austrian is almost as bad!

[C19fan]

(1), (3) and lesser extent (4) have already happened. I think Papandreou needs to dissolve Parliament and call an election as a referendum as to whether Greece wants to stay with the Euro or dump it.