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To: EnderWiggins
The law of cause and effect is the most rigorously confirmed induction we have ever been able to make as a species.

Specifically this is rigorously confirmed by induction based on observation, not deduction. Otherwise one could simply say we can simply deduce what you just called "miracles" do not happen without any observation of the universe at all.

An eternal universe is no more or less absurd than an eternal God.

If and only if this eternal God did not transcend nature in a way that made the observation based induction of causality applicable to Him.

An eternal universe.

If there is one thing modern physics has strongly suggested about the universe, that we as a species were not aware of before, it is that there is no example of anything infinite in it.

Now this contradicts our intuition, and who knows what theories will evolve later, but currently it looks like there is a smallest discreet unit of everything. Matter, energy, space, and even time. Thus nothing in the universe strictly needed the Calculus. There is a lot of space, but it doesn't go on forever. There are many particles, but there is a finite amount. There is a lot of energy, but it is finite. Any kind of infinity in this universe only appears to be a concept in the minds of people.

134 posted on 02/16/2010 4:49:24 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: AndyTheBear
"Specifically this is rigorously confirmed by induction based on observation, not deduction. Otherwise one could simply say we can simply deduce what you just called "miracles" do not happen without any observation of the universe at all."

Yes... that's why I called it an "induction." I thought you would notice... but I'm not sure now that you did.

"If and only if this eternal God did not transcend nature in a way that made the observation based induction of causality applicable to Him."

What a splendid admission that your version of God is an arbitrary invention that cannot be reasoned to. To posit the existence of such an entity you must give it characteristics that excuse it from ever actually being subject to investigation. That is very convenient to to the sectarian apologist. But it offers no path to confidence that it is true.

What continues to fascinate me is why any body who believes this would bother to try and reason to a conclusion that they have already admitted is beyond the access of reason? It speaks (IMHO) to the tacit understanding that science actually is the most powerful, more important and most successful human endeavor in all of history. The temptation to try and co-opt some of that "glory" in the service of sectarian belief is overwhelming; hence religiously based pseudosciences like creationism.

If, as you asset above, God transcends nature in a way that makes the observation based induction of causality inapplicable to Him, why then even pretend to care what science has to say on the issue?

"If there is one thing modern physics has strongly suggested about the universe, that we as a species were not aware of before, it is that there is no example of anything infinite in it."

A complete red herring. An eternal universe does not require there to be "anything infinite in it."
139 posted on 02/17/2010 11:01:22 AM PST by EnderWiggins
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