Posted on 01/25/2010 7:53:17 PM PST by smokingfrog
A leading Polish Catholic bishop caused a stir on Monday when he was quoted as saying that Jews had "expropriated" the Holocaust as a "propaganda weapon".
The comments by Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, a former head of the Polish bishops' conference, prompted concern among Jewish leaders in both Poland and Italy after they were published on the conservative Italian Catholic website www.pontifex.roma.
Pieronek later went on Polish television to say his comments had been manipulated and he denied one phrase in which he was quoted as saying "the Holocaust as such is a Jewish invention".
He also said that he did not "authorise" the publication of the interview, which was still on the website on Monday evening.
"It is undeniable that the greatest number of dead in concentration camps were Jews but there are also Polish gypsies, Italians and Catholics on the list," he was quoted as saying.
On Wednesday some countries will mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day on the 65th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Polish President Lech Kaczynski and ministers from many European countries are due to attend commemorative events at Auschwitz on Wednesday.
"It is not right to expropriate that tragedy for propaganda," Pieronek was quoted as saying, adding that memorial days should be held for the "victims of communism, for Catholics, for persecuted Christians and so on."
He continued: "But they, the Jews, enjoy good press because they have powerful financial means behind them, enormous power and the unconditional backing of the United States and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable."
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
Do you have some specific examples or are you just using this for another ignorant Catholic bashing opportunity?
I don’t know much about the Holocaust vis a vis Catholics. Did Hitler target them?
Proof, please. Otherwise, nice talking point from the DUmp and Madeline Murray O'Hare.
The Church has done more to help humanity (converted or not) since its founding than ANY other group. To spread such a lie about those trying to do God's work is beneath contempt.
God bless you. He WILL judge all of us who have sinned. This includes you, like it or not.
Many of us Jews know that millions of Poles and other nationalities/ethnics/religious people died at the hands of the Nazis.
A late friend of mine was Stefan Korbonski, a leader of the Polish Home Army. He was one of the few PHA leaders to smuggle guns into the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto so that the people could resist the Nazis. For this he was honored with the title of Righteous Gentile by the Vad Yashem Memorial/Foundation in Israel. He was a nice gentleman, a friend of Karski.
Another historical fact. The majority (some say up to 70% of the Polish Reserve Officers killed in the Soviet-perpetrated Katyn Forest Massacre) were Jewish. Many Jewish citizens of both German and Poland joined Reserve organizations, often after having served in WW 1.
My friend’s great-uncles received two Iron Crosses Second or Third Class for their serving in the German Army in WW1. One was killed in action; the other was beaten to death by the Nazis in 1933 eventhough he was a well known civic figure in his town.
“Well, I might get flamed for this,”
And deservedly so. Your comment might have been made in innocence, but it was also made in ignorance.
“but he has a point.”
Nonsense. No Jew or Jewish organization (Simon Wiesenthal Foundation, YIVO, etc.) has ever claimed that only Jews suffered or that non-Jews were not also marked for extermination by the Nazis. What irks many is that it has been mainly Jews and Jewish organizations that have researched these atrocities, published scholarly books and articles about them, pointed accusatory fingers at collaborators, and taken the dangerous step of hunting Nazis (including kidnapping them, if necessary) in order to bring them to justice. If you know of any homosexual organizations, or Gypsy organization that have done anything similar to this, please let me know.
“5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it.”
Baloney. Anyone interested in the subject can easily learn this. That it has not penetrated into popular consciousness is due precisely to what I mentioned above: to my knowledge, no homosexual or Gypsy has bothered to inform the public. Why is it the fault of Jews that the proverbial man-in-the-street might not know about the attempted Nazi extermination of homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons? Why is this not the fault of surviving homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons?
“We only hear about the Jews, sometimes about Gypsies and homosexuals and that’s about it.”
See above.
The reason Jews have concentrated on the specific Jewish experience with Nazism is because Jews in Germany were an integral part of German and European culture and were already noted for cultural achievements in medicine, music, philosophy, mathematics, etc., etc. and who fought patriotically for the Fatherland during WWI. Jews — not homosexuals — were (and still are) recognized as a unified culture, a “people.” Not so for homosexuals. Gypsies, indeed, are a people, but with a connection to European cultural achievements in art and science that were (and are) considered very different from that of Jews.
The Polish bishop also conveniently forgets that there was a great deal of Polish complicity with the SS Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads) that would follow on the heels of the Wermacht as it blitzkrieged through town after town in eastern Europe, round up all the Jews and either shoot them outright, or poison them with carbon monoxide in special vans motorized vans. Millions of Jews were murdered this way, as opposed to dying in camps. Jewish homes and wealth were then expropriated, often by local Poles. This is not even controversial scholarship today, and has all been documented by academic scholars such as Raul Hilberg, as well as by the French documentary filmmaker Claude Lanzmann in his 9-hour documentary “Shoah.” I recommend you see it; you’ll learn a lot and it may stop you from making foolish “flame-worthy” statement later on.
The idea that SS Einsatzgruppen murdered millions of homosexuals in homosexual villages and towns across Eastern Europe in an attempt to erase a long-standing homosexual culture intertwined with the evolution of western civilization is ludicrous. You can replace “homosexual” with “Gypsy” and “Freemason” and it will be just as ludicrous.
Jews — not homosexuals, not Gypsies — were singled out for special treatment in propaganda attacks. There are many extant examples of Nazi-era high-school physics textbooks that would ask students questions such as these: “If a Jew weighing 80 kilograms is hanging by the neck on a gallows, what is the tension on the rope? Draw a force diagram.” Julius Streicher made a special point of attacking Jews in “Der Sturmer”, not Gypsies or homosexuals. Goebbels approved the making of a film called “Die Ewige Jude” (”The Eternal Jew”) in which Jews were likened to rats infesting a city; an infestation requiring extermination by poison gas. Jews were also attacked by a revival of an old Czarist-era anti-Semitic tract called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in which Jews were seen as acting in concert to take over the world through an international conspiracy of bankers and media moguls. I know of no similar tract accusing homosexuals or Gypsies of attempt to “take over the world.” I know of no similar event against homosexuals or Gypsies as the notorious “Kristallnacht.” I’m not claiming homosexuals and Gypsies weren’t made to suffer under the Nazis; I’m saying that I know of no similar action against them.
Instead of asking “Why didn’t Spielberg include equal time for homosexuals and Gypsies in ‘Schindler’s List’” it would be more productive to ask “Where are the films by homosexual filmmakers in Hollywood (there are many) about the suffering of homosexuals under Nazism? Where are the Gypsy filmmakers making films about the extermination of Gypsies during WWII?”
Excellent comment!
Where are they? Maybe they feel it's not necessary because every time a Jew says NEVER AGAIN! the homosexuals and the gypsies know they are included?
You wrote:
“Yes, however, only the Jewish people faced the intentional threat of extinction as such. That is a qualitative difference between the treatment of the Jews and the treatment of non-Jews.”
The Nazis wanted to wipe out the Gypsies as well.
You wrote:
“And deservedly so. Your comment might have been made in innocence, but it was also made in ignorance.”
No, not at all. I know a good deal about the subject actually.
“Nonsense. No Jew or Jewish organization (Simon Wiesenthal Foundation, YIVO, etc.) has ever claimed that only Jews suffered or that non-Jews were not also marked for extermination by the Nazis.”
That isn’t the issue in itself. What many eastern Europeans resent is the idea that the non-Jews are forgotten while today’s Jews promote Holocaust awareness - meaning really the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust.
“What irks many is that it has been mainly Jews and Jewish organizations that have researched these atrocities, published scholarly books and articles about them, pointed accusatory fingers at collaborators, and taken the dangerous step of hunting Nazis (including kidnapping them, if necessary) in order to bring them to justice. If you know of any homosexual organizations, or Gypsy organization that have done anything similar to this, please let me know.”
For obvious reasons homosexuals and Gypsies would have less reason or ability to do all of those things. Homosexuals would not want to expose themselves as such. Gypsies were dirt poor and scattered throughout Eastern Europe and never ended up with either a large immigration to the US or a newly founded Gypsy homeland.
“Baloney. Anyone interested in the subject can easily learn this.”
CAN learn it. Most people don’t know it. I know they CAN learn it with effort, but they don’t already KNOW it even though they are all but guaranteed to KNOW six million Jews died. Your choice of “can” instead of “know” proves my point. Even you have admitted that they don’t know it already. Everyone already knows about the six million Jewish dead.
“That it has not penetrated into popular consciousness is due precisely to what I mentioned above: to my knowledge, no homosexual or Gypsy has bothered to inform the public.”
What? You think the 5 million non-Jews killed were all gays and Gypsies? Are you insane? Also, most of us learned about the 6 million Jews from TV, school textbooks, an endless series of films, etc. We did not learn about it because of a Jewish organization per se. What you are proposing - that Jews have deliberately organized and “penetrated into popular consciousness” with their or their ancestors suffering is exactly what the bishop was talking about. You’re making it sound like propaganda (and I don’t mean untruthful propaganda either). And I think that’s what the bishop was getting at. You’re just proving my point.
“Why is it the fault of Jews that the proverbial man-in-the-street might not know about the attempted Nazi extermination of homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons? Why is this not the fault of surviving homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons?”
Oh, so justice has nothing to do with anything? It’s all about organizing and penetrating the popular culture with the best propaganda rather than telling the full truth of what happened to everyone? Thanks again for proving my point. Remember, the bishop said:
“It is not right to expropriate that tragedy for propaganda,” Pieronek was quoted as saying, adding that memorial days should be held for the “victims of communism, for Catholics, for persecuted Christians and so on.”
He continued: “But they, the Jews, enjoy good press because they have powerful financial means behind them, enormous power and the unconditional backing of the United States and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable.”
You seem to be actually leaning toward those points - except instead of “powerful financial means behind them” you say “organization”.
“The reason Jews have concentrated on the specific Jewish experience with Nazism is because Jews in Germany were an integral part of German and European culture and were already noted for cultural achievements in medicine, music, philosophy, mathematics, etc., etc. and who fought patriotically for the Fatherland during WWI. Jews — not homosexuals — were (and still are) recognized as a unified culture, a “people.” Not so for homosexuals. Gypsies, indeed, are a people, but with a connection to European cultural achievements in art and science that were (and are) considered very different from that of Jews.”
Why EXACTLY are you fixated on homosexuals and Gypsies? I mentioned them perhaps but the bishops said much more. You are deliberately reducing the 5 million to gays and Gypsies (and to a lesser extent Slavs, and Freemasons).
“The Polish bishop also conveniently forgets that there was a great deal of Polish complicity with the SS Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads) that would follow on the heels of the Wermacht as it blitzkrieged through town after town in eastern Europe, round up all the Jews and either shoot them outright, or poison them with carbon monoxide in special vans motorized vans.”
Uh, no. There can be no doubt that the Einsatzgruppen killed some Jews in Poland, perhaps 500,000 by mid-1941, but the mass killings of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen were mostly used in the USSR to slaughter Jews. In Poland they were as much used to kill Poles as Jews and the Poles did not help them accomplish this to any great extent. The Poles, in fact, except for small acts of informing on Jews, participated in the Holocaust less than other Eastern European peoples such as the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, some Russians, etc.
“Millions of Jews were murdered this way, as opposed to dying in camps. Jewish homes and wealth were then expropriated, often by local Poles. This is not even controversial scholarship today, and has all been documented by academic scholars such as Raul Hilberg, as well as by the French documentary filmmaker Claude Lanzmann in his 9-hour documentary “Shoah.” I recommend you see it; you’ll learn a lot and it may stop you from making foolish “flame-worthy” statement later on.”
I’ve seen the documentary. I saw it in the 1980s. And it changes nothing I’ve said. In fact nothing I have said disagrees with the documentary.
“The idea that SS Einsatzgruppen murdered millions of homosexuals in homosexual villages and towns across Eastern Europe in an attempt to erase a long-standing homosexual culture intertwined with the evolution of western civilization is ludicrous.”
Who ever suggested that there were homosexual villages? Who? Show me where I suggested that? Is that what the bishop said? No. I can see your desperation here. For you to go to those lengths - suggesting that I said there were homosexual villages where “millions” of homosexuals were murdered is so idiotic that quite frankly I can’t help but conclude you’re a moron. Are you really that desperate that you have to make up such an outrageous lie?
“You can replace “homosexual” with “Gypsy” and “Freemason” and it will be just as ludicrous.”
Yes, it is ludicrous - and no one suggested it except you. I mentioned that we sometimes hear about homosexual and Gypsy victims. They made up only a small portion of the 5 million victims who were not Jewish. I never suggested - nor did the bishop - that anything approaching your idiotic statement.
“Jews — not homosexuals, not Gypsies — were singled out for special treatment in propaganda attacks.”
Actually they were singled out but Jews - being much more numerous and feared and hated most were especially made the object of propaganda. The Nazis considered this necessary because the German Jews would have to be alienated in Germany itself before they could be exterminated.
“There are many extant examples of Nazi-era high-school physics textbooks that would ask students questions such as these: “If a Jew weighing 80 kilograms is hanging by the neck on a gallows, what is the tension on the rope? Draw a force diagram.” Julius Streicher made a special point of attacking Jews in “Der Sturmer”, not Gypsies or homosexuals.”
Uh, actually to Streicher, to the Jews and Gypsies were analogous sub-humans: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ds5.htm
Streicher of course focused on Jews more than Gypsies, but he certainly degraded Gypsies often enough.
“Goebbels approved the making of a film called “Die Ewige Jude” (”The Eternal Jew”) in which Jews were likened to rats infesting a city; an infestation requiring extermination by poison gas. Jews were also attacked by a revival of an old Czarist-era anti-Semitic tract called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in which Jews were seen as acting in concert to take over the world through an international conspiracy of bankers and media moguls. I know of no similar tract accusing homosexuals or Gypsies of attempt to “take over the world.” I know of no similar event against homosexuals or Gypsies as the notorious “Kristallnacht.””
Why would there have to be? Both Gypsies and homosexuals were looked down upon already by most people in society. There was already anti-semitic sentiment in Germany but not enough to allow the killing of huge numbers of people. That’s why the Nazis had to produce their propaganda against the Jews to excite such hatred and loathing. That was not necessary against the Gypsies and homosexuals because they were already thought of as outsiders or sick. And none of those points you just made changes what I said or even comes close to refuting it. I said: “5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it.” All you’re doing is proving it bu going on and on about Nazi moves against Jews.
Now, you can continue being an idiot and making false claims that someone here suggested there were millions of homosexuals murdered in villages. The truth is that there were 5 million people - of all backgrounds - who were murdered in the Holocaust by the Nazis that have largely been forgotten by the world while we all know about the 6 million Jews.
“I’m not claiming homosexuals and Gypsies weren’t made to suffer under the Nazis; I’m saying that I know of no similar action against them.”
And again, why would there have to be on the part of the Nazis when they could accomplish what they wanted without doing that?
“Instead of asking “Why didn’t Spielberg include equal time for homosexuals and Gypsies in ‘Schindler’s List’” it would be more productive to ask “Where are the films by homosexual filmmakers in Hollywood (there are many) about the suffering of homosexuals under Nazism? Where are the Gypsy filmmakers making films about the extermination of Gypsies during WWII?””
I’m sorry but that’s another idiotic statement. What Gypsy film makers? How many are in Hollywood? Seriously, can you name more than a few? Can you name any? The better question might be, “Why is it that Hollywood makes film after film about Nazis murdering Jews but laregly ignores the 5 million non-Jews?” I think that those who make films in Hollywood are simply not interested in making films about Christians be slaughtered by Nazis. They want to keep up the idea that Nazis and Christians were all but one in the same. Hollywood produces Holocaust films every few years if not every year. Whose story are they telling? Whose story are they not telling?
They want to keep up the idea that Nazis and Christians were all but one in the same.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I sense that there is a profound hatred of Christians by those in the highest levels of the film industry. And...I do think you have made a valid point. It does seem that they wish to create the idea that Nazis and Christians are the same.
You wrote:
“The Gypsies did not bear the same antipathy that the Jews did.”
The Nazis wanted to exterminate the Gypsies. It is true that they hated the Gypsies LESS than they hated the Jews, but there is no doubt that they wanted to exterminate both groups. To say otherwise is to deny what we know about the Nazis.
“Go back to WWII-era Nazi propaganda and read some of it,”
I’ve read it already - and much of it in German too way back when when that was easy for me to do.
“...then come back and we can have an informed discussion”
From what I can see about your knowledge you need to be more informed. I suggest you take up your own suggestion and then come back. Even then you may not be able to keep up your end in an informed discussion.
Ya wohl. Denier
The whole discussion is silly anyway. Imagine if it was proven that in cold blood, Bush ordered the murder of a political opponent and his family,,, just ONE family. That is what happened back then, and the priest thinks it’s moral to attack the people trying to remember the murdered.
Nazi lovers argue about numbers, targeted groups, and intent. Some confused souls seem to think that being anti-communist means everytime the Nazis are discussed, they must helpfully point out that the Soviets were worse. Like Nazism was really much different than communism. Hitler as “anti-communist” was and is a joke.
Even the crazy priest in the story starts in by saying “the Jews have all that money, and power, etc”. Goebels would be proud of the guy.
You wrote:
“Ya wohl. Denier”
I have denied nothing that is true. I do not deny for a second that millions of Jews were murdered by the Nazis. I also don’t deny that millions of non-Jews were murdered by the Nazis. The fact that you accuse me of being a denier when I never denied the Holocaust only shows us all what you’re like as a person, not what I or anyone else believes.
The Nazi's wanted to wipe out all untermensch, or lesser persons and to improve the genetic make up of the Aryan peoples through eugenics. The Jews were only one of the target groups.
This statement is true.
"It is not right to expropriate that tragedy for propaganda,"
I agree. Rahm Emmanuel's policy of "never let[ting] a good crisis go to waste" is repugnant.
memorial days should be held for the "victims of communism, for Catholics, for persecuted Christians and so on."
I see nothing objectionable about this opinion, and I certainly agree that the Communists have gotten off lightly.
"But they, the Jews, enjoy good press because they have powerful financial means behind them, enormous power and the unconditional backing of the United States and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable."
He's entitled to his opinion, is he not? Perhaps, however, rather than complaining about the existence of eg. the ADL it would be more productive to form a group dedicated to exposing the horrors committed against gentiles by the national socialists ... and against all people by the international communists.
Do you have some specific examples or are you just using this for another ignorant Catholic bashing opportunity?
__________________
Oh, there are TONS of examples throughout Church History of the Catholics exploiting suffering — but I’m betting even if I offered a catalog of them, you’d deny and justify almost every one. So, basically, yes, I was just bashing Catholics — not out of ignorance, but with knowledge. :-)
NOT that I think that characterizes the WHOLE of Roman Catholic history — far from it. I have a great deal of respect for Catholics throughout history. Sometimes, the hypocrisy outshines the high spots. Lest you think I am JUST picking on Catholics — the same could be said about ANY and ALL “Christian” churches, organizations, movements and traditions.
I think I’ll bash Baptists next...Maybe then Pentecostals? :-D
I don’t know much about the Holocaust vis a vis Catholics. Did Hitler target them?
_______________________
Hitler generally left Catholics and Lutherans alone— UNLESS they opposed him. Then he went after them with a vengeance. Truth is, many Lutherans and Catholics in Germany and beyond in Europe (and even in the United States) supported Hitler — initially. Look up pictures of several Catholic Bishops doing the classic Nazi salute on Google for instance.
BUt that does NOT represent the whole of the story — it’s much more complex than that. And many were just apathetic at the start, only growing opposed and active against Hitler as his atrocities grew more obvious and alarming. Read about Martin Neimuller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer for examples of this.
Some facts ... Facts are the best antidote to ignorance.
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