RAF urged to cut ‘Cold War’ new jets for cheap propeller aircraft

The Times, UK ^ | January 22, 2010 | Tom Coghlan

[sukhoi-30mki]

RAF urged to cut ‘Cold War’ new jets for cheap propeller aircraft

Tom Coghlan, Defence Correspondent

The RAF is under pressure to cut its multibillion-pound orders for fast jets in favour of cheaper propeller aircraft as part of a review of defence spending. The suggestion, from General Sir David Richards, has ignited a debate that pitches the head of the Army against his opposite numbers in the other two Services.

General Richards, Chief of the General Staff, believes that the Super Tucano offers a cost-effective alternative to fast jets such as the Cold War-era Eurofighter Typhoon in counter-insurgency operations such as those in Afghanistan. Resembling something from the Second World War, a Super Tucano costs about £5 million, a fraction of the £60 million estimated cost of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter ordered for the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers or the £67 million of a Typhoon.

A strategic defence review expected after the general election is likely to recommend that each Service’s budget is cut by about 20 per cent.

General Richards has argued that state-on-state confrontations will be largely replaced by counter-insurgency operations in the future, making huge savings possible if the Government is prepared to sacrifice ships and tanks for lighter and cheaper but technically advanced matériel.

Air analysts argue that the Tucano offers a cost-effective platform to which high-tech equipment and munitions can be attached. It is being considered by the US Navy after impressive performance in Colombia, where it is used against FARC rebels.

Paul Beaver, former editor of Jane’s Defence Weekly and a former army helicopter pilot, said: “What David Richards is saying is that the airframe does not need to be superb — you just need to put high-tech sensors and the defensive aids on there.

[Madame Dufarge]

HUMBLEY-PUDGE GALLIPOLI HEAVYISH BOMBER

Lewis gun blazing, flour bags cascading down, the pachydermic Gallipoli terrorized practice target ranges across the empire from 1933 to 1939. Four Varley "Panjandrum" motors screwed her up to a cruising altitude several feet over the legal minimum of the day. Relatively few were built, but more than enough Gallipolis were delivered to the R.A.F., which handed them over to the Royal Indian Air Force, which handed them over to the Royal Malayan Air Force, which promptly found itself plagued by wholesale desertions of its flying personnel. The Gallipoli's moment of glory came and, lightning like, vanished during the surprise Japanese invasion of Singapore in early 1942. Hordes of Nips swarmed toward the R.A.F. aerodrome; out went the call, "Warm up the Gallipolis!" And, indeed, 36 of the breed might have risen to meet the foe had not their special boarding ladders turned up missing. The sobriquet Sitting Duck has clung to the Gallipoli ever since an unjust cut in view of this perfectly harmless old war horse's clearly worthwhile intentions. The last survivor serves today as a chicken house- albeit an impressive one- for the Maharani of Gunjipor. It crash-landed on her lawn in 1944, but the R.A.F., despite numerous reminders, simply keeps forgetting to come round and pick it up.

Major Howdy Bixby's Album of Forgotten Warbirds

[GalaxieFiveHundred]

[Pilsner]

If you were on the ground getting shot at waiting for air support, which would you prefer!?!??!?!?

I'd prefer my side to have so many cheap ground attack aircraft that a couple of them are loitering overhead.

You would prefer to have a tiny number of incredibly expensive air superiority fighters, that have some capacity for ground attack. Maybe one will be available. Maybe it will be able to fly to where you are in time. Maybe the pilot will be able to see the target you want him to hit as his fighter screams overhead at 400 mph. Maybe he will be able to knock out the bad guys before he has to fly home, or fly off for an air to air refueling.

It’s easy to propose cutting the defense budget when you’re not getting shot at. What is the acceptable trade-off of lives lost per dollar saved? Did McNamara leave us an equation for that???

What is the cargo capacity, in cubic feet, of the F-22? How many passengers can the F-35 carry? How good is a C-130 in a dogfight? What capacity does a C-5 have to land on an unpaved runway? Since none of these planes can do it all, are they all "unacceptable" tradeoffs?

My point is that we should build the weapons we need, not build the weapons we want. We need a whole lot of ground attack planes with large weapon capacities, long loiter times, and low stall speeds, so that the pilots can accurately put ordinance on small targets, like a couple of guys with AK-47s.

The problem is, the Air Force guys with stars on their shoulders want jet fighters. To them, ground support is, at best, a stepchild.

[Non-Sequitur]

It depends what the theater of operations is and what is it’s intended duties. I’m sure in certain cases it could work, but it can’t go head to head with jets. It’d be hit before it ever saw them coming.

And what good is the Eurofighter or the F-22 in Afghanistan? I don't think anyone was suggesting scrapping jets and going to Tucanos. But cutting back purchases of one platform that is useless in your current combat environment in favor another platform that is perfect for that environment makes sense in times of finite military budgets. The U.S. Air Force should be so smart.

[Non-Sequitur]

There is a place for Prop driven planes on the battlefield but, only if they air is held by jets. Otherwise they are just targets.

A country could have air superiority in Afghanistan with Tucanos alone.

[phormer phrog phlyer]

A number of years ago, a company put a turboprop on a P-51 to use in the COIN role. I saw it was for sale a couple of months ago. That would be fun to tool around in.

[phormer phrog phlyer]

Was he east or west coast? I was at New River from the early to mid 80’s in HMM-365, 266 and 264. I flew for Pan Am until their demise then 747 freighters until shortly after 911.

[taildragger]

I seen so many aircraft at air shows I am sure I have this one too...

But this is like giving the Poles more Horses as the German Blitzkrieg is about ascend upon you...

I am agast at the insanity. if they wanted to go for something like a revisit of the Northrup F-5 or even the Warthog, something low cost, but all the way back to this, no way....

[RaceBannon]

You have Freep Mail, with his name. :)

Sounds like you two would have met.

For the life of me, I forgot the squadron designation for OV-10’s!!

[RaceBannon]

VMO-1 !!

It took a while! :)

But my friend was XO or CO of the VMO squadron in New River, if I remember correctly, mid to late 80’s

He also had a tour in Oki

[Vanders9]

Osama Bin Laden doesnt have any jets.