Israel Rabbi Asks Pope to Halt Pius' Beatification

The New York Times (AP) ^ | January 12, 2010

[presidio9]

Pope Benedict XVI should be welcomed when he visits Rome's main synagogue, but he should halt moves to beatify wartime pontiff Pius XII, criticized for not doing enough to stop the Holocaust, a former chief rabbi of Israel said Tuesday.

Israel Meir Lau, a Holocaust survivor and now chief rabbi of Tel Aviv, said Benedict's synagogue visit Sunday would be ''appreciated and blessed.'' But in an interview with Italy's Sky TG24 television, he said he was ''surprised'' by Benedict's decision last month to move the controversial World War II-era pope closer to sainthood.

Benedict sparked outrage among some Jewish groups by signing a decree on Pius' heroic virtues, paving the way for him to be beatified once a miracle attributed to his intercession is confirmed.

Some Jews and historians have argued that Pius, pope from 1939-1958, was largely silent on the Holocaust and should have done more to prevent the deaths of 6 million Jews at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators.

The Vatican insists Pius used quiet diplomacy to try to save Jews and that speaking out more forcefully would have resulted in more deaths.

It said last month the decree on his heroic virtues wasn't so much a historical assessment of his pontificate as a confirmation that he had led a deeply Christian life.

In the past, Jewish leaders had asked the pope to put the beatification on hold until archives on Pius' pontificate are opened to outside scholars. The Vatican has said those archives won't be catalogued and ready until 2014 at the earliest.

In the interview broadcast Tuesday,

[AnAmericanMother]

No problem!

We're in my area of expertise here - my undergraduate degree is in history, with a concentration in military history, and I took 10 years of German (I'm not as fluent as I used to be - rusty - but I can still read with no problem.)

I figured out a long time ago that this whole 'controversy' is one of the biggest disinformation campaigns ever to come down the pike - with the Russians and East Germans at the back of it and every liberal/communist fellow traveller booming it for all they're worth (after all the further to the left you are, the more you hate the Church - the Church being the last large organization standing against the left's goals).

[Don W]

I notice that Fundamentalist Protestants, however philo-Semitic they are, don't insist on imposing themselves on Orthodox Jewish congregations in any capacity other than as quiet guests.

Well, other than their violent, virulent anti-Catholic screeds throughout the audible and radio spectra, that is...

[Ciexyz]

Reading all posts with interest. Wasn't Edith Stein shipped off to Auschwitz because Hitler was furious about Catholic church pronouncements against his activities, and he decided in response to kill more Jews?

In other words, the more you pushed the Nazi establishment, the harder they came down on dissenters to make an example.

[AnAmericanMother]

That's a much better answer than mine.

I was looking at the practical and legal problems with destroying a bunch of documents -- if a department issues a report on the first Monday of every month for 10 years, then all of a sudden for 6 months, no reports, then all the lawyers get really interested. You can't hope to hide it. Summary judgment for spoliation of evidence, sanctions, disbarment and jail time to follow.

You were looking at the big picture, and you're absolutely right. If the Church would do such a thing - deliberately hide and destroy evidence in order to canonize a Nazi - it would be the most evil organization on the face of the earth.

[sitetest]

LOL!

[Zionist Conspirator]

I notice that Fundamentalist Protestants, however philo-Semitic they are, don't insist on imposing themselves on Orthodox Jewish congregations in any capacity other than as quiet guests.

Well, other than their violent, virulent anti-Catholic screeds throughout the audible and radio spectra, that is...

Why do Catholics fear virulent screeds more than they do ecumenism? At least the Fundamentalists aren't coming over to your churches and demanding that the two religions be blended.

[blu]

Ahhh...there’s no better Catholic than a converted Catholic. gotcha.

[AnAmericanMother]

"But, Mrs. Luce . . . the Pope is already Catholic!"

But think about it. Converts have considered the issues seriously -- many (by no means all!) cradle Catholics are just going with the flow, and have no idea what treasures they have.

And in this case, the slanderous attacks on Pius XII bothered me long before I was a Catholic, and there are old posts right here on FR to prove it. I'm an old rat in the barn courthouse lawyer, and I know a fraud when I see one.

[sitetest]

Dear AnAmericanMother,

I’ve been told that sometimes cradle Catholics are antagonistic toward converts.

Personally, I love Catholic converts. My late father-in-law was a convert, and a very good Catholic man. I know many converts at church. Heck, I think my parish would fall apart if not for the efforts of those who came to Catholic faith in adulthood.

Thanks for all you do.

sitetest

[AnAmericanMother]

But your response begs the question -- and doesn't answer mine:

What more could the Pope have done?

Contrary to your assertion, he spoke out over and over again, not just locally, but internationally -- not only to every Catholic in every church in Germany, but to the world. I gave you multiple examples - from biased Catholic sources like the New York Times, no less.

You're the one who claimed he didn't speak out enough. So explain what you think he should have done, or retract your statement.

[AnAmericanMother]

I certainly haven't noticed that in our parish. "Welcome home!" was the greeting we got from everyone when we joined up. Of course, our parish is very orthodox.

What I have noticed is that fallen-away Catholics and Catholics-in-name-only are very hostile to converts -- but then they're hostile to ALL faithful Catholics.

[AnAmericanMother]

I guess maybe some converts are like liberal emigrants from California -- they move to a nice quiet conservative Western state because things got so bad back home. Then the first thing they do is to try to makeover their new home into California!!!

But I just haven't seen much of that anywhere. The cradle Catholics who haven't really thought about the subject are the ones who say things like, "I don't really see the problem with women priests" or "Nobody really believes in the Real Presence, do they?" or even "What about a woman's right to choose?"

I've been there, and it wasn't nice. That's why I'm here, and I sure as heck don't want to bring it with me.

[blu]

You're the one who claimed he didn't speak out enough. So explain what you think he should have done, or retract your statement.

You may be an American mother, but you're not my mother or my priest. And you're a poor imitation of Sister Mary Ethelgene! In other words, neither will I explain or retract my statements.

I must say, this is by far the rudest I have ever been treated at FR, and by fellow Catholics no less! I am shocked and dismayed by the rigidity, rudeness and venom with which my comments have been met.

I have a point of view which differs from yours. I have not called into question anyone else's faith. I have merely stated my opinion, based on my research. And no, I'm not going to dig out my collge paper from 1992 which supports my opinion. I do, however, still have the reference list, should anyone care to re-do the research.

I would like to say this will be my last post on this subject, but it probably isn't.

What I will explain is this: What little part of God that is in each of us are you choosing to ignore? If you haven't had the pleasure of a Catholic school education, nuns included, you may have to think about this. But, I can see that you're smart, you'll get it (and I am not saying that sarcastically, I am saying it most sincerely).

[Karliner]

Yes, I understand that Hitler was one nasty satanic worshipping occultist. However, the debate was regarding Hitler never being excommunicated by pope Pius. In a sense he's still Catholic which in Jewish( the rabbi's eyes) shows the Catholic church has not relinquished its blood thirst against Jews. I cannot speak for the rebbe but I was raised Catholic, became Christian and then found we were "conversos," or at one time in the past Jews that were forced to be Catholics under penalty of death. It was very secret to be a Jew, and very fearful times. So, I respect the pope knowing full well what he was up against but I just have only heard of his benevolence toward the Jews, never seen proof.

Hitler cleansed Christians, Jews, Serbs and so many, many more. My major question AnAmericanMother is what did the pope do that deserves Catholic sainthood? Until I see proof and not words he actually helped Jews and others escape the tyranny of Hitler then my question stands, why saint a pope that didn't even verbally halt the blood loss of Moussilini, Hitler and all the cronies?

Whathas Pius done that deserves sainthood? I do not understand.

[TheThirdRuffian]

As a generic, non-Roman Catholic Christian, the only place I’ve ever seen sniping by Protestant Christians against Roman Catholic Christians is on FreeRepublic.

For that matter, the only time I’ve ever seen Roman Catholics snipe at Protestants (and other non-Roman Catholic Christians) is on FreeRepublic.

Most Christians have sense enough to get along, and do their best to serve Christ.

Not sure why FreeRepublic is so disfunctional in that regard.

[TheThirdRuffian]

I actually agree with your sarcastic post; no such persons should be upheld.

[Karliner]

Okay, just read your second post. Thanks, makes more sense.

[blu]

I’ve been told that sometimes cradle Catholics are antagonistic toward converts.

Oh, I so don't want to go there with you! I've always enjoyed your posts and your opinions. What you and American mom are doing is obliquely saying that I'm hostile to converted Catholics.

Not true. Converted Catholics have an advantage over us cradle Catholics. They get an in-depth education into our church, at an age where they can truly understand it. Yep, for the most part, they know more current info than we. My only problem is that some of them seem to think that since they're info is more current, they are better Catholics than cradle Catholics. To some extent, I'm happy for them. They've got this great new thing, being Catholic. They want to show it off, they're just thrilled with it. I understand that (OMGosh, if you could hear me when I learn about a new theory or law! I'll talk your ears off!) I guess they don't understand how offensive it is to be told that I'm not as good a Catholic as they are.

I keep in mind that there is only one Judge that I need to please. I try not to judge others, and I certainly never offend (intentionally) another's faith. (Get this(irony alert): I'm attending a Christian university where all but 1 of my fellow students are Protestants! We all are learning much about each other's faith, but the main thing we are learning is to not knock each other's faith. They don't evangelize the 2 of us Catholics, we don't evangelize them. We respect each other.)

[Karliner]

Thanks presidio9. Again, I'm no scholar and have read what I can. Still I wonder about pope Pius on the way to sainthood. But again, as I wrote AnAmericnmother, I myself have left the Catholic church for reasons of my own.

I've read enough about the Catholic Church to both love and hate its past. That does NOT mean I dislike the parishoners. Just FYI one of my grandmothers brothers was a priest in Papua New Guinea for years. He did some good things there. The cannibal revolt sort of put an end to him. I didn't know of what you wrote, or maybe I've forgotten. Thanks for the answers. Proverbs 9:8( though I don't consider myself wise).

[AnAmericanMother]

All the ad hominem is just a distraction from the subject here. Try to keep to the point.

The fact that you haven't done any research since 1992 explains a lot. Your research has been overtaken by more recent scholarship.

Cornwell's book was published in 1999, seven years after you tossed your paper in a drawer.

In the resulting controversy, a lot of information came to light, particularly the Kremlin files and the STASI dossier regarding the engineering and funding of these stories about Pius XII by the Kremlin and E. Germany. A great deal of material regarding Pius XII and the war years was made public for the first time since then. And at least three books compiling much of the documentary evidence have also been published since 1999.

So if you won't cite any facts, won't consider other people's facts, and refuse to support your position because you don't want to dig out an 18-year-old college paper . . . well gee whiz, that position can't be taken seriously.

Interestingly enough, Cornwell has publicly retracted the thesis of his book in light of all this new evidence. If he has revised his opinion, you might want to consider doing the same.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with your faith, my faith, or anything other than proper historical method. Whatever part of God you are toting around is irrelevant to your refusal to consider the facts. So don't change the subject.

Although you might want to consider whether retailing out of date slander about somebody is really a good idea.

Sister Mary Attila (who trumps Sister Mary Ethelgene any day) would be very, very disappointed in you.