Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Real Rules of War (A must read especially for those who don't know how to wage war)
Wall Street Journal ^ | December 23, 2009 | Warren Kozak

Posted on 12/23/2009 7:37:58 AM PST by yoe

Five years ago, a particularly gruesome image made its way to our television screens from the war in Iraq. Four U.S. civilian contractors working in Fallujah were ambushed and killed by al Qaeda. Their bodies were burned, then dragged through the streets. Two of the charred bodies were hung from the Euphrates Bridge and left dangling.

This barbaric act left an impression that our military did not forget: In a special operation earlier this year, Navy SEALs captured the mastermind of that attack, Ahmed Hashim Abed. But after he was taken into custody in September, Abed claimed he was punched by his captors. He showed a fat lip to prove it. Three of the SEALS are now awaiting a courts-martial on charges ranging from assault to dereliction of duty and making false statements.

This incident and its twisted irony takes me back to an oddly serene setting many years ago. When I was in college, I joined my parents on a trip to retrace my father's wartime experience in Europe. We drove from France, through Holland and Belgium and on to Germany—the same route he had taken with the U.S. Army in 1944-45. At a field outside the Belgian town of Malmedy, we got out of our rented car where my father described something I had never heard before.

During the Battle of the Bulge, in the bleak December of 1944, the Germans had quickly overrun the American lines. They took thousands of prisoners as they pushed through in a last chance gamble to turn the war around. One unit, part of the First SS Panzer Division, had captured over a hundred GIs. They were moving fast, and they didn't care to be burdened by prisoners. So the SS troops …….

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: roe; rulesofwar; war
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-39 last
To: All

“According to my very wise grandfather,The rules made by the Geneva Convention were for the lawyers and elites, not for those ACTUALLY fighting the war.”

Then, Please explain the 90%+ survival rate of Allied air crews shot down over Germany and German aircrews shot down over England.

Given the large number of civilians killed strategic bombing the either side could easily have justified not taking these air crews prisoner.

From what I have read, the Geneva convention was more or less followed on the Western Front in Europe and rarely followed on the Eastern Front or in the Pacific.
With large percentages of both allied and German POWs taken on the Western front,treated well and surviving the war.


21 posted on 12/23/2009 8:30:15 AM PST by Jonah Johansen ("Coming soon to a neighborhood near you")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: koraz
Ever notice how much Sherman looked like Chuck Norris? ;-)
22 posted on 12/23/2009 8:30:40 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Monterrosa-24
Such policies save American lives because . . .

Maybe. In every "war" or war-like conflict in history, more 'troops' (including irregulars) have surrendered or just quit than were actually rendered ineffective through direct combat (casualties or captured). Working on the morale of the enemy - including convincing them that they're better off surrendering than continuing to fight - is very effective.

However, when the enemy chooses to disregard the rules of war - and gets away with it - things change. That encourages the next enemy to go even further to violate the 'rules' of war. And from that you get bodies burned and hung from a bridge, or heads hacked off with a knife.

Having enemies that feel they can get away with that and be treated in accordance with the Geneva convention if they are ever caught . . . that doesn't save American lives.
23 posted on 12/23/2009 8:33:26 AM PST by Phlyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: yoe
In his book about Operation Overlord (the "D-Day" invasion of France in 1944), British author Max Hastings recounts that American soldiers implemented a policy of shooting German snipers that they caught behind their lines. This was not just just a couple of isolated acts by soldiers who caught the sniper who had just shot a buddy. As a matter of unwritten policy, the killed every sniper they could get their hands on.

What to do? The snipers were uniformed German soldiers, and sniping is not a violation of the rules of war, but killing disarmed prisoners is. The problem was kicked up the Chain of Command until it got to General Omar Bradley, commander (at the time) of all American ground forces in France. Bradley, who was, I think, about as mild mannered and decent a guy as ever commanded an American Army, ruled that there would be no Courts Martial convened over shooting snipers, with the comment:

If the Germans think that they can come behind our lines, shoot our guys down, then surrender when they get caught, or run out of ammo, and that were are going to send them to a POW camp and feed 'em hot chow, they got another thing coming. We are going to be just as rough with snipers as they are with us. (I quote from memory).

That was the US Military circa 1944. It is a travesty that in 2009 we can't a General Officer (or whatever the Navy calls a guy with stars) to stand up and say I'm not convening a Court Marital to see if the SEALS did or did not give the terrorist a bloody nose.

24 posted on 12/23/2009 8:36:07 AM PST by Pilsner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yoe

Include those captured alive in the body count, after interrogation, insure that the earlier report of their demise, is correct.


25 posted on 12/23/2009 8:39:53 AM PST by Boiling point (Beck / Palin 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
As far as the Geneva Convention is concerned, terrorists can be shot when captured.

Lawyers and politicians like Murtha have urinated on the Geneva Convention where our troops are concerned.

26 posted on 12/23/2009 8:50:47 AM PST by Sarajevo (You're jealous because the voices only talk to me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
The Geneva Convention DOES NOT give any rights to terrorists.

Our Congress gives them rights.

27 posted on 12/23/2009 8:53:30 AM PST by yoe ( Fight organized crime: Re-elect no one...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: yoe
"I have always felt," Capt. Tonkin said, "that the Geneva Convention is a dangerous piece of stupidity, because it leads people to believe that war can be civilized. It can't."
28 posted on 12/23/2009 9:02:24 AM PST by Screaming_Gerbil (The light at the end of the tunnel might be a muzzle flash...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Le Chien Rouge; freekitty
My grandfather never talked about the war. When asked what/where he was in Europe he'd just reply "we weren't sightseeing."

After the 50th anniversary visit, he began to talk- a little. He described himself as "one of the lucky ones" who landed the afternoon of D-Day. His first step into another country was a step into hell. Two weeks later he said he never saw what hit him. He said someone propped up against a fence post (which indicated that he might live) for an undetermined amount of time- he said it could have been hours or days- and then spent the rest of the war in hospitals.

Thirty years later, he bought a diesel VW Rabbit. He absolutely loved that car and commented that "they must have left some smart ones live."
29 posted on 12/23/2009 9:29:54 AM PST by philled (A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.-- GB Shaw)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: yoe
There are three rules for war:

1. Never humanize your enemy.

2. Kill your enemy until he stops killing you.

3. There are no rules in war.

30 posted on 12/23/2009 9:40:28 AM PST by Will we know the moment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Phlyer

The theory is called reprisal and it works pretty well. Tom Kratman explains it pretty well in a book called “a Desert called Peace”.


31 posted on 12/23/2009 9:44:05 AM PST by ClayinVA ("Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: yoe
Yale Law School
Lillian Goldman Law Library

On 30th January, 1943, (Ernst Kaltenbrunnr)was appointed Chief of the Security Police and SD and Head of the Reich Security Head Office (RSHA)

During the period in which Kaltenbrunner was Head of the RSHA, it was engaged in a widespread programme of war crimes and crimes against humanity. These crimes included the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war.

Kaltenbrunner's regime established the "Bullet Decree," under which certain escaped prisoners of war who were recaptured were taken to Mauthausen and shot. The order for the execution of commando troops was extended by the Gestapo to include parachutists

An order signed by Kaltenbrunner instructed the Police not to interfere with attacks on bailed out Allied fliers. In December, 1944, Kaltenbrunner participated in the murder of one of the French Generals held as a prisoner of war.

With the Red Army closing in on Germany, Kaltenbrunner gave orders for all prisoners in extermination camps to be killed and then fled south but was captured by Allied troops. Accused of crimes against humanity at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial he was found guilty and executed on 1st October, 1946.

avalon.law.yale.edu

spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk

32 posted on 12/23/2009 9:44:07 AM PST by Daaave ("Heavier than air flying machines are impossible.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: philled

When I was young,my grandfather took me to Europe several times and showed me many of the Battle of the Bulge sites and I got a first hand history lesson.

What I did not know till much later was that his wife, my grandmother, spent a couple of years in a concentration camp...she was in the French Resistance.

Their generation was rather quiet about the hell on earth that took place from 1939-1945.


33 posted on 12/23/2009 9:47:53 AM PST by Le Chien Rouge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: JoeMac; narses; MarkBsnr; Lurker; xone; Captain Kirk; Petronski; going hot; goat granny; ...

Ping to some who participated on “Principles of the Just War”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2401504/posts?page=1


34 posted on 12/23/2009 10:00:19 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Will we know the moment
There are three rules for war:
1. Never humanize your enemy.
2. Kill your enemy until he stops killing you.
3. There are no rules in war.

Rule #2 needs a minor revision. Sapping your enemy's will to fight can be done in many more ways than simply killing. (Heck, look at the incredibly good job the MSM does at sapping our will to fight, particularly by violating Rule #1.) Sun Tzu, and anyone who has actually fought in a battle, will tell you that it is FAR better to win without firing a shot.

(However, if clever diplomacy, sneaky tricks, ruthless espionage, and overt threats don't work, few methods are more reliable than quickly and efficiently taking out far more of them than they take from us.)

35 posted on 12/23/2009 10:24:20 AM PST by Teacher317
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Monterrosa-24
Such policies save American lives because the enemy is more likely to surrender sooner when the tactical situation is not in his favor.

This is true when you are fighting regular troops, but it is just a tactic to be exploited by fanatics. The Japanese were not impressed and frequently did fight to the last round. Similarly, terrorists are not prone to such western concepts of self preservation because the entire point of their actions is to win or die as a martyr.

And I am sick of hearing about our enhanced interrogation techniques creating more terrorists. I am not aware of a single American POW since WWII who was not tortured or at least had the crap beat out of him after capture. Why? Because they know they can do it with impunity and there will be no similar response to their side.

Each conflict should be evaluated individually and our policies based on one thing and that is how they treat our troops. If you give our guys a break we will do the same. If you ignore international norms we will not bind ourselves to them unilaterally.

36 posted on 12/23/2009 11:06:07 AM PST by usurper (Spelling or grammatical errors in this post can be attributed to the LA City School System)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: hopespringseternal

‘A full third of this nation seems intent on destroying itself.’

Worse, they’re absolutely intent on taking the rest of us with them.

And this SEAL thing is legalistic bunk.


37 posted on 12/23/2009 11:28:23 AM PST by Jack Hammer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: yoe; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; V V Camp Enari 67-68; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

38 posted on 12/23/2009 12:28:52 PM PST by narses ('in an odd way this is cheering news!'.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
The Geneva Convention DOES NOT give any rights to terrorists. As far as the Geneva Convention is concerned, terrorists can be shot when captured.
Anyone who says otherwise, actually subverts the Geneva Conventions. In that same way that an overbid at bridge produces subsequent underbidding. Accord the enemy rights which he does not reciprocate, and you will eventually lose.

Nobody will enlist in your army under those conditions.


39 posted on 12/23/2009 1:03:10 PM PST by conservatism_IS_compassion (DRAFT PALIN)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-39 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson