Posted on 12/19/2009 7:50:31 PM PST by Nachum
With Obamacare, you get the good, the bad, and the ugly -- except for the first part.
The Congressional Budget Office's score is in for the final Senate health bill, and it's amazing how little Americans would get for so much.
The Democrats are irresponsibly and disingenuously claiming that the bill would cost $871 billion over 10 years. But that's not what the CBO says. Rather, the CBO says that $871 billion would be the costs from 2010 to 2019 for expansions in insurance coverage alone. But less than 2 percent of those "10-year costs" would kick in before the fifth year of that span. In its real first 10 years (2014 to 2023), the CBO says that the bill would cost $1.8 trillion -- for insurance coverage expansions alone. Other parts of the bill would cost approximately $700 billion more, bringing the bill's full 10-year tab to approximately $2.5 trillion -- according to the CBO.
(Excerpt) Read more at weeklystandard.com ...
“Democrats, whose legislators control both the House and Senate, continue to be the big supporters of the health care plan. Seventy-one percent (71%) of those in the president’s party favor it. Eighty-one percent (81%) of Republicans and 69% of voters not affiliated with either party oppose the plan.”
That’s from a Rasmussen summary from 12/14. I guess they’ll have a new one this week.
Yep, that's why I been doing those posts on the liberal backlash. They are a part of why Obama’s polls have dropped. It's our job to use those fractures in the democrat coalitions. Liberals are a powder-keg ready to blow on this Senate bill and it is now Pelosi’s job to sell them out for a legislative victory. This was the plan all along.
Pelosi Signals Openness To Bill Without Public Option, Others Also Eye Possibilities
You're right. For them!
Here is yur post I was replying to:
If Americans disapprove of this bill by the 61% and growing that polls indicate, and also disagree with most of Obama's major policies, and the Tea Party movement keeps growing and the voters show their dissatisfaction at the polls in 2010 and 2012, then this Obamacare bill can be neutralized, particularly in a Republican House of Reps.
That post seems to assume that the 61% is all against socialized medicine, and I don't think it is. Some of that 61% will probably try to elect candidates even further to the left than the ones they have now. It's not clear to me how big that slice of the 60% is.
The way I see it, some good things could result from this, like not passing this healthcare bill at all, but I doubt it. The Stupak characters versus the Wasserman-Schultz characters in the House.
But since the congresscrooks in power do not seem to care what the people want, there is a danger that all these complications will result in an even worse bill. But even that could result in a better result in the 2010 elections, if we do have fair elections.
I do appreciate your reply and patience, but what part of the Dems and independents oppose it because it is not far enough to the left? I don't see how that answers my question.
And you probably won't see polls that answer that because it is too vague and inspecific. You might find polls which ask if people oppose it because it does not at present have a public option, or is not strong enough pro-abortion, or other issues important to the left. Those are two issues that have been mentioned by leftists who are less than pleased.
We definitely do NOT want this either bill to pass and I still see an uphill battle for Obama, Reid, Pelosi. They have a number of weeks home with this crap out there. What we need is for enough Dems to hold their positions/demands. I would love to see one or two Senators make new demands like Nelsons
RE:”That post seems to assume that the 61% is all against socialized medicine, and I don't think it is. Some of that 61% will probably try to elect candidates even further to the left than the ones they have now. It's not clear to me how big that slice of the 60% is. ”
I agree with you, passing this will not help Dems in 2010 but it will be hard to undo the bill. Democrats know that most people will support keeping their socialized medicine to paying for their own medicine. (You see anyone turning away SS or Medicare benefits? Now the RNC is their defenders.) What may happen if this is passed is premiums go up before any benefits go into effect, because some new regulations are immediate. Now how this would play out politically in the long run I wont try to guess.
Trusting Republicans to do the right thing after they win back congressional seats is something I cant do.
RE:” But since the congresscrooks in power do not seem to care what the people want, there is a danger that all these complications will result in an even worse bill. But even that could result in a better result in the 2010 elections, if we do have fair elections.”
Democrats are now in a lose-lose position. Most are already associated with this train wreck, that is the master plan to make it hard for them to back out. Already the White House has Dean softening his launguage. Pelosi needs this thing passed and over. Will see what Dem house members being screamed at for a few weeks does (they will all promise conference will fix it.)
Of course we won't see question worded exactly like that. I was just trying to make a point without being too wordy. It would not be that hard to make questions that asked about the deficit, taxes, "public option," forced enrollment, medicare panels, abortion, etc.
And the pollsters might say that would put too big a demand on the poor public's time/attention span. They might be right about that. I think you and I pretty much agree that the 60% "against" Obamacare doesn't tell the whole story.
Most of them will hide, and that is also a mortal threat to their political careers, if the people hold them accountable. I think chances are good.
If you don’t receive Rasmussen’s free daily report, you’d probably find more detailed information about the polls there. All they ask for is an email address, zip code and age.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/premium_content/daily_snapshot
Upper left corner.
Democrats wouldn’t dare pass it, but for a complicit news media.
The REAL COST is not being broadcast on the news.
Wasn’t this Lieberman’s big issue? Did he agree to this number?
You are making a fundamental mistake here. You are assuming that most people are going to end up with a better health care under 0bamacare than they had before.
That is patently false. There is no such thing as a great, regular, free lunch in perpetuity. Inevitably, 0bamacre will send health care levels in thic country into the pits, and make things much, much worse for the average American they they were before.
Heck the British have been up in arms against their screwed up socialized medicine for decades.
Most Americans are already against this 0bamacare abomination(by 2:1). Just wait till the taxes and the jailings in 0bamacare come into effect. The Democrats have signed their own death warrant.
Lieberman must have been bought off.
No, just saying you can never get rid of entitlements. Once the government regularly gives someone something, they get addicted to it. They may demand more spending and taxes, they may demand someone else be cut. But they wont tolerate the government ending their benefits. In fact more and more will want to be included, like with SCHIP. People including Republicans prefer something that looks free.
Your example the British, you wont see them calling to end the system.
What entitlement? 0bamacare is bringing in vast new taxes(of up to $1 Trilion), will put people in jail for not not joining, and is guranteed to give most Americans worse health care than they had before.
I don;’t see how most Americans are going to like that.
” Once the government regularly gives someone something, they get addicted to it”
Exactly what is the goverment “giving” most Americans here?
A much WORSE health care system, accompanied by huge new taxes, and jail terms for those who fall foul of the healthcare system.
Heck, even the liberals are up in arms over the Senate healthcare bill. Where are the benefits for most Americans at?
“But they wont tolerate the government ending their benefits.”
It's more like most Americans won't tolerate the government screwing up the great health care system they had before 0bamacare came and screwed it up.
You have it the wrong wat round.
” In fact more and more will want to be included, like with SCHIP.”
For the illegals aliens, the welfare queens , the lazy, and the ne'er do wells, sure. For most Americans (who have the world;s best healthcare sysrtem right now)? No.
“Your example the British, you wont see them calling to end the system.”
The British have a Queen too, and they are still NOT calling for an end to the monarchy. That doesn't mean America wants a Queen/King here.
We got rid of King George long ago, and fought a bitter war to remove any allegiance to any King.
The British don't know any better. They have had the NHS like forever. Americans on the other hand, have had private healthcare for eons. We know a screwed up 0bamacare system when they see one, and Americans are up in arms right now. Look at how the anti-0bamcare Tea Party is polling better than the Democrats right now. That is umprecdeneted for a “party’ that only started a few months back, to be out-polling the party that controls the White House and both houses of congress, and won everything just a year ago.
The Democrats are gonna pay a very high price for this suicidal act.
RE :”It’s more like most Americans won’t tolerate the government screwing up the great health care system they had before 0bamacare came and screwed it up.”
You are predicting Obama-care wont be signed into law? What do you mean wont tolerate? Resistance?
If it passes, it will be signed into law.
But then whatever congress can vote for, another congress can vote against.
Laws are not cast in stone, neither are Democratic Party majorities.
0bamacare doesn't even come into effect till 2014, even though they are going to start collecting taxes for it much earlier.
The congress after 2010 and 2012 will be vastly differeent from what we have now, and we WILL have a new president in 2013, and it ain't going to bge no communist Kenyan.
It will be a different party but you seem to trust that Republicans will get rid of the spending and regulations passed now. Note that in 1995 Republicans NEVER tried to repeal the Clinton tax increases passed 1983.
Short a total economic disaster don't expect an end to this government takeover. And don't trust republicans to fix anything
I mean passed 1993!
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