Well, you answered this quite well in following paragraphs (and didn't leave me much, but I'll improvise) [almost NFL/Limbaugh-esque?, but definitely UAW influenced]
Racing is jointly advertisement and R&D. Some companies also do it for prestige, or used to be able to afford to do so.
As to Toyota, when they first considered sponsoring, I recall some questioning whether they (a non US corp) should be allowed to compete. NASCAR being 'American'.
Of course, non of the competition 'cars' are actually manufacturing brands and Toyota did have US facilities (or were being built).
I thought that their ability to design and build close tolerance production cars would prove to be an asset and that their racing cars would quickly have a showing.
Drivers aside, their initial track failures were somewhat amazing, at least to me.
Guess any continuation could be considered as R&D, since as you say, they don't need the advertisement. Or, maybe they consider it as being part of the 'fraternity'?
[I think that the only part of any NASCAR 'COT' car, that is in anyway part of any car company, is the letters displaying said company name in vinyl or enamel]
>Ask yourselves this: Does Toyota really need NASCAR to sell Camrys? ;^)
"Well, you answered this quite well in following paragraphs (and didn't leave me much, but I'll improvise) [almost NFL/Limbaugh-esque?, but definitely UAW influenced]"
Great sense of humor, my friend. ;^) LOL
"Racing is jointly advertisement and R&D."
Totally agree, absolutely.
It's the necessity of either, I question.
"Some companies also do it for prestige, or used to be able to afford to do so."
Yes, in the "old days" this is very true. Certainly long before the Japanese owned Toyota (Toyoda) made the scene.
The ol' "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" was really so, a Lee Iaccoca would've been the very first to tell anyone that much. They broke the proverbial mold when that man left the industry.
"As to Toyota, when they first considered sponsoring, I recall some questioning whether they (a non US corp) should be allowed to compete. NASCAR being 'American'."
Yes, you're communicating with one of the "somes". LOL
"Of course, non of the competition 'cars' are actually manufacturing brands..."
No, not now. OTOH my cousin (much older than I, FWIW) was an "official" in the 60s for NASCAR. At the time I never heard the acronym "NASCAR", though.
All I knew was "Andy" would come up from FL every year, park his trailer in our driveway so he could officiate at the "200 Mile Late Model Stock Car Race" at The Milwaukee Mile" on the Wisconsin State Fair Park grounds.
Got *special* privileges because of that man, long before there were to my knowledge, "Pit Passes" available to the general public for a price.
Point is: I can clearly recall in my mind's eye the likes of Fred Lorenzen, "Fireball" Roberts and a very young Richard Petty to name only a few. All today part of racing legend. And I mean up close & personal in some cases, the cars those men raced were indeed "Stock cars".
As you know.
"...and Toyota did have US facilities (or were being built)."
Assembled, huge difference.
My educational backgrounds an EE. Specialized in factory automation, ie, robotics A to Z, ring nets (old stuff, today), welding, painting ops via robotic device & on and on. I tell you this because my first internship job was with a Swedish outfit named ASEA. Look it up. My "job" was cracking open wooden shipping cases, unpacking & then assembling contents. When finished there'd be a shiny new very advanced servo motor driven, sometimes multi-axis device. Cutting edge stuff then, taken for granted, today.
FYI: None of the "value added" components were built in US foundries, forge shops, machine shops etc. *None*. The Swedish peoples got that gravy. Just as in most cases the Japanese peoples do with autos, today.
Last I'd heard same goes with Toyota et al and all the other foreign marques "assembled" here stateside. Though admittedly [that] may be changing. I've a very good pal living in Newburgh, IN. A Sr. VP for a recycling concern [read: scrap yard]. Nearly every billet of reclaimed aluminum's bought by Toyota in Princeton, Indiana. So there's obbiously *some* kind of heavy manufacturing going on today, beyond that which I was aware years ago.
"I thought that their ability to design and build close tolerance production cars would prove to be an asset and that their racing cars would quickly have a showing."
And IMO you're absolutely spot-on with your thinking because Toyota certainly has met & exceeded your expectation(s). Honda *&* Nissan while not as high profiled have also had successes, too; moreover, the automation processes are largely attributable to the Japanese manufactures were great influences with our Big 3 if only for QC.
Particularly influenced was GM, their embracing of GE/Funuc. Is why GM can build a 400# LS7 delivering 500HP @ 480lb/ft of torque *while* approaching upper 20s for mileage -- as long as one keeps their spurs outa the thing? LOL
Ford & Chrysler have achieved similar & respectable results as GM. The kind of performance in years past required sending INE components to racing motor machine shops for ops such as head work, balancing etc are now done at the factory on all autos; hence, great mileage, reliability and especially performance. Right?
Insofar as NASCAR goes, though? The cars are a light year away from "stock", so far in fact it's borders ludicrous.
Of course the venue's hardly "National" anymore too, unless one buys a distortion of the term 'national' as this generation seems so adept at doing in order they fit their dream into a template of comfort? LOL
"...aside, their initial track failures were somewhat amazing, at least to me."
In my engineering background, particularly in the beginning? "Learning Curves" were often "Learning Walls".
Didn't surprise me one iota Toyota experienced catastrophic failures in the Cup venue, and in spite of several years prep time in the truck series. Part of the process.
And even then didn't at least ONE Dodge team lose their franchise because they'd given Toyota a Dodge racing mill, perhaps even offering other aid? Yea, I think so and today that same team races, ready...Toyota. LOL Shezam.
The Japanese are if nothing else the "Reverse Engineering Kings" of the entire species. More power to 'em, just saying. ;^)
"I guess any continuation could be considered as R&D, since as you say, they don't need the advertisement."
Except Toyota who comfortably leads in the coveted mid-sized passenger car category. Soon other sizes too, I'm sure.
GM, Ford & Chrysler, OTOH, need all the help they can get. Providing, they can continue to afford participation?
"Or, maybe they consider it as being part of the 'fraternity'?"
Take your pick, my friend. I'm merely an unamused spectator these days. :^)
Even the returns on R&D's suspect --IMO-- due entirely to today's amazing computers & software employed for geometric modeling etc. As opposed to the "old days" when say a 426 cu.in Hemi or a Ford cammer 427 --also a hemi headed design tho' Mr. Jessup's the man on all things Ford-- were run at the upper edge of their perceived designed tolerances, on race tracks. If the motor failed? Engineers did their post mortem autopsy and made correction(s), accordingly. Anything we got out of the showroom were built to specs much less; hence, more reliable so the theory went.
Now consider the viability of R&D return(s), today.
The real question of whether a win on any day xlates into a sale, coupled with NASCAR's seeming reluctance to focus on winning monikers in lieu of capped teeth kid-drivers, many who don't even shave? And I for one have to wonder what's in it for the Big 3, anymore.
The cost(s) to the Big 3 have to be simply staggering and my friend, for those of us who purchase one of the Big 3's products? We're paying for the NASCAR racing programs. Racing program costs are built-in to every car & truck we purchase. Is the additional cost necessary?
How long before the usually gawd-awful smart, wily clever & cutting edge Japanese figure out everything discussed for themselves? FWIW methinks they already have, in Formula 1A.
"[I think that the only part of any NASCAR 'COT' car, that is in anyway part of any car company, is the letters displaying said company name in vinyl or enamel]"
~& I think you're one astute person because that's all it is. LOL
IF a motor, any brand including Toyota --& they're all pretty much equal-- doesn't frag during a race? It's really all about chassis and tires. Isn't it.
And NASCAR *wonders* why they're taking on water fast by the bow. LOL!!
Thanks for the wonderful conversation my friend, and to you BBM for posting this fascinating article. ;^)