I am not the one citing this account (Joseph Smith History 1:18-20), you started that (as far as I am aware) on this thread, nor am I the one now changing the subject by referring to other accounts. I was just using actual quotation of the account you cited to point out that mormons do not understand this account--their "scripture" here--the way you say they do. The "professors" here who are "corrupt" are not generic christian believers, they are those that "teach . . . doctrine" as the quoted text goes, or, as mormons understand it, persons who claim to speak for God but without authority. Mormons do not understand this scripture to say that all Christian believers are (or were) corrupt. You don't need a specific special meaning of "professors" to understand this--just look at it in context--"professors" in this case teach doctrine--they are not the same as all Christian believers.
In your additional quotation from Joseph Smith using "professors of Christianity," it would seem the horse story is just a convenient object lesson, and the term "professors of Christianity" could be intended either way--to refer to teachers or leaders only, or to believers as a whole. Assuming for purposes of discussion that the term is used for believers as a whole, the quotation is still consistent with how mormons understand the state of the churches and of people generally in the time after the apostles and before Joseph Smith. According to your quotation, Smith said: What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world. According to the Book of Mormon, as I quoted before, as of the time immediately before Joseph Smith: . . . [the former people of God] have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14) So according to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, almost all had gone astray, that is, "professors of Christianity" (believers, for the sake of this discussion) "generally" had gone astray, "except for a few, who are the humble followers of Christ."
As I said, I am just pointing out that mormons do not believe that members of various Christian denominations, past or present, are themselves corrupt or abominable, as you claimed. As a counter example, mormons even believe that there were before and at the time of Smith (and presumably now also) at least some "humble followers of Christ" who are not "mormons". That was all I was saying, and now I've said it again.
Again, what's Smith broader view of Christian people? When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119). You see this as "Smith's broader view of Christian people." Mormons would see it as Smith's view of the authority of Christian leaders after the time of the apostles to receive revelation, teach doctrine and perform ordinances such as baptism.
Your real argument seems to be (1) mormons believe what I say they do (or they ought to and they would if they would just read the sources I use and give them the proper interpretation and weight, as I do); (2) what I way they believe is ridiculous and intolerant on its face; (3) so everyone here should call them on it.
I am just disagreeing with number (1) here. Others can agree or disagree as they will.
(Sorry for the double post—I LOVE Vista!)
...horse story... ?
HORSE STORY??
ALL of MORMONism is BUILT on the assertion that ALL of CHRISTIANITY is flawed - esPECIALLY PRESBYTERIANism!
(Just ask RESTORNU)
Alright, I know it's Halloween week -- but could we please stop with the Lds masquerade you're putting up here to try to soften what Mormon "revelation" reveals? As you mentioned, this is the second post where you've cited 2 Nephi 28:14 to try to elevate the notion that Mormons supposedly recognize "a few...humble followers of Christ."
No one's going to catch you in this deception unless they have a copy of the Book of Mormon and note that Lds say that 2 Nephi 28:14 was supposedly written between 559 and 545 B.C.!!! -- or almost 600 years before Christ even was born!!!
(Of course, non-Mormons would then ask, "Joachim, ya wanna explain how only a few followers of Christ remained when he hadn't even been born as a Bethlehem baby til almost 600 years later?" But aside from that hard-to-swallow tale, all your quoting of 2 Nephi 28:14--even in its proper Mormon "historical" context means -- is that Lds will concede that not all of Christ's followers had apostacized as of 5-6 centuries BEFORE Christ was born! That's it!)
BYU prof Kent Jackson, in his Lds Ensign article on the so-called complete Christian apostasy, writes: By a.d. 95 only John remained, as far as we know...The apostasy did not happen because the Apostles were gone; the Apostles were taken because the apostasy had occurred. EarlySignsOfTheApostasy
Will you be forthright with lurkers and myself and concede that 2 Nephi 28:14 doesn't even address the time period of the post-resurrection Christ or the church He established among His disciples? (Please, please, please, in the name of intellectual integrity, drop this wrestling-out-of-historical context)
My previous post:: Again, what's Smith['s] broader view of Christian people? When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Your response: You see this as "Smith's broader view of Christian people." Mormons would see it as Smith's view of the authority of Christian leaders after the time of the apostles to receive revelation, teach doctrine and perform ordinances such as baptism.
I guess I had to chuckle at the lengths you're proceeding to avoid the obvious. I mean just look how you've...
...redefined a clear Joseph Smith reference to "everybody" (ToPJS, p. 119 quote above)...
...& then conveniently narrowed the scope to "Smith's view of the authority of Christian LEADERS" just to make this all nice & tidy with your pre-existing assumptions about Joseph Smith v. 19.
So let me try this again, this time with a multiple-choice test, just to see if you're going to stick to your story:
When Joseph Smith answered 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." to the Q, 'Will EVERYBODY be damned, but Mormons'?, Smith really was referencing "EVERYBODY" as...
Choice A Christian LEADERS only
Choice B Everybody
Choice C Readers are simply free to "agree or disagree as they will" and insert anything they want to replace the meaning of "Everybody" according to their theological whims
The "professors" here who are "corrupt" are not generic christian believers, they are those that "teach . . . doctrine" as the quoted text goes, or, as mormons understand it, persons who claim to speak for God but without authority. Mormons do not understand this scripture to say that all Christian believers are (or were) corrupt. You don't need a specific special meaning of "professors" to understand this--just look at it in context--"professors" in this case teach doctrine--they are not the same as all Christian believers.
OK, so that we don't just go round and round on this one -- what vv. 18-19 says, and so that we really try to understand each other, let's try to weave both of our emphases into a merged interpretive summary:
Can we agree then that...
(1)...v. 18 twice references which SECT to join (which embodies ALL professing believers making up that sect)?
(2)...v. 19 specifically references what that sect teaches -- "they teach for doctrines the commandments of men"?
Even if I was to try on for size your point that Smith was primarily focusing on the teachers within these sects, who would that have included in 1820?
(a) Christian missionaries;
(b) Christian pastors;
(c) Christian writers;
(d) Christian administrative leaders;
(e) Christian evangelists like John Wesley;
(f) Christian hymn writers like John's brother, Charles, who died in 1788 [in fact, Lds hymnals include Charles Wesley's "Rejoice, the Lord is King" hymn (#66) as well as Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress" (#68)...and, 190 of the 358 Lds hymns in their book were written by non-Lds folks!]
(g) Christian teachers of children & adults -- which, frankly, as Lds & Christian home schoolers & Lds family home evening teachers show, includes even parents!
So, you're telling me, that...
...contemporary Mormons who realize that 2 Nephi 28:14 didn't apply to Christ's A.D. church...
...take Joseph Smith vv. 18-20 to mean that...
...the "corrupt professing believers" Smith mentioned...
...were "ALL" of the Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox missionaries, pastors, writers, administrators, evangelists, hymn writers, and teachers of children & adults within their denominational sects???
Wow! What a "relief!" Here I "thought" Smith was condemning ALL Christians as "corrupt." Instead, you're telling me, "Nope, the 'only' 'corrupt' ones were..."
...the hymn writers we incorporated into 53% of our hymnal book,
all your pastors,
all your missionaries,
all your evangelists,
all your writers,
all your teachers (broadly speaking),
and all your administrators.
(And this is all on top of us agreeing that Smith says ALL Christians embraced a track record of 100% false creeds)
What a "relief" Joachim. You've at least communicated well on the last excerpt I cited of yours -- but not really picked up much reassuring ground to the Christian community about Lds' portrayal of "tolerance" toward their Christian neighbors.
And, as it applies to this thread, my comment is: So Glenn Beck believes this about much of his audience -- what I just elaborated upon since it's both the founding Lds vision & it's Lds "scripture" to boot?