Posted on 10/22/2009 7:34:31 AM PDT by kronos77
Amid the worst recession in generations, Karl Marx, who famously described religion as “the opium of the people”, got a thumbs up from the Vatican overturning a century of Catholic hostility to his creed.
Marx, who predicted that capitalism would be destroyed by its internal contradictions, has joined Galileo, Charles Darwin and Oscar Wilde on a growing list of historical figures to have undergone an unlikely reappraisal by the Roman Catholic Church, The Times newspaper said on Thursday.
The British daily, quoting the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano, said Marx’s early critiques of capitalism had highlighted the “social alienation” felt by the “large part of humanity” that remained excluded from economic and political decision-making.
Amid signs of recovery in global financial markets, Christian leaders have flayed the capitalist system for displaying a lack of moral values, arguing that ethical debates needs to be given greater prominence.
Georg Sans, a German-born professor of the history of contemporary philosophy at the pontifical Gregorian University, argues that Marx’s work remained especially relevant today as mankind was seeking “a new harmony” between its needs and the natural environment.
The report quoted Prof. Sans as saying that Marx’s theories may help to explain the enduring issue of income inequality within capitalist societies.
(Excerpt) Read more at beta.thehindu.com ...
No one is disputing that some Catholics are thoroughly lousy exemplars of Catholic thought and teaching. Teddy the Hutt and Stretch are fine examples of such Catholic lay folks.
But, again, the headline wasn't, "Some Catholic Laity Like Socialism."
So, silly me, I was arguing against that charge that was actually made and not against some other charge that was not made until now. It is about the initial lie that I claim to have taken the field, not about anything else.
Not only does "the Vatican" take a very dim view of Marx, but an article's being printed in L'Osservatore Romano is a lousy reason for taking it as in any way representative of Catholic thought.
Even the occasional idiot bishop, or a whole gaggle of idiot bishops who don't get what "subsidiarity" means and requires do not constitute the Vatican's giving Marx a Thumbs Up.
When, and only when, it is conceded that the original headline and article are false, whether intentionally or mistakenly, then I will entertain some other topics. Until then, well I think I'll enjoy this field that some Catholic haters challenged us on and were defeated.
Well, in the same usage, I'll say many Protestants "never" learn how to make a distinction or to tell between valid and invalid distinctions.
I maintain that, as I said, there's something the same and something "other". The same is the shopping, the "other" is remaining within a denomination. There are important differences between, say Baptists and Presbyterians or between either of them and Episcopalians. But I have known people to float from one of these denominations to another because of the preacher or the music or whatever. I would venture to guess that there are few Catholics (on a percentage basis) who float from the Catholic Church to the Baptist and back again on such grounds. So it's a significantly different KIND of Church shopping. I can agree that there is Church Shopping, but not that it is exactly like Protestant Church Shopping
>>You all never admit the truth about this.<<
Who’s “You all”?
Maybe you don’t know a lot of Catholics, but everyone I know admits to it. We don’t like a parish, we find another.
See, the liturgy is the same (mostly) wherever we go. So we shop for the community. Except in the case of an ultra-lib parish. There, the liturgy has so much innovation, is can border on bizarre.
Parish shopping is not a secret.
Who allows anyone to present themselves as acceptable practicing Catholic? NONE of these lay or standing have had their practices tossed out as being against the Church.
The claim can be made until the sun turns black that Marx is an unacceptable political doctrine, but I can point to nation after nation around this globe that does indeed practice varying degrees of Marxism.
What from our independence that separates US from all other nations is the stated acknowledgment that the 'rights' of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness come from the Creator. But that is not good enough for the small minds of man because they crave power and authority in establishing themselves as 'gods' not only over these rights but over all rights.
I believe with all my being that every individual has the God given right to choose what path they will follow. But as it is Written the deceiver was filled with the pride of his own intellect and beauty he rebelled and decided he would be God. Welll we are nigh down that path of where all souls that choose to 'see' the kingdom of God (John 3) have passed through this flesh age.
Back when the Heavenly Father established His government recorded in the Judges we are told that the Heavenly Father told Gideon to cull down his army to 300 for the purpose of the people knowing WHO gave them the victory.
Paul says that what happened to them is written for our admonition as to what would be again to bring about the end of this age.
The majority has never ever stayed very long on the side of 'right'. IT is recorded. I call them as I encounter the facts and I know from personal experience it is NOT a lie to state there are Marxist practicing a 'social gospel' right smack in the middle of that church.
But lest you think I believe for an instant this church is alone in whitewashing Marxist ideology as part of their religious doctrine, NOT SO. I came from a majority of Baptist of some form or other, and the majority of them were first born and bred democrat and they HATE with all the 'red' blood passion everything Republican/Conservative, and notions the Ten Commandments are still in effect.
There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their 'work' to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.
Christ warned the first sign of His return was deception, MASS deception and my friend it is gone viral around this globe. And neither you nor I nor your church is going to stamp out that deception.
I think it's a lot easier for protties to lump every Catholic, practicing and non-practicing, devout and non, social gospel follower or capitalist -- all into one pot, and blame it all on the whole Church. It's intellectually lazy.
Protestants avoid any criticism by saying "Those protestants over there are socialists, but MY church isn't" or "Those protestants believe in unisex marriage but MY church doesn't" to get yourselves off the hook. Each Protestant thinks they have the only true church.
But let somebody call themselves Catholic for the purpose of getting votes, and suddenly their pronouncements are from the Vatican and their sins are the Pope's & all Catholic FReepers sins. I swear. Freaking perfect protestants, all in their own little boxes. "We thank you God that WE are not like those nasty Catholics."
I have Catholic inlaws, I love them in spite of the fact the live in a 'gray' world were there is a multitude of varying degrees of right and wrong. They always vote liberal.
And I come from a majority of Baptist of some brand. The majority of them were/are born bred democrats. And while their traditions differ in how to walk through this life to Judgment Day, both think politically speaking in and on the same terms. What I keep hearing with more frequency a 'social gospel'.
I can find the same drought of charity for those of and about on the protestant path and I personally have lived with the disdain of NOT being a Catholic. But that does not alter my search for truth and understanding of what was given as instruction to find that path as follower of Christ.
Now it may be impossible for you or them to look outside the box they were either brought up in or decided as adults to climb into. We have ONE Heavenly Father and ONE Savior, but 7 churches as noted in Revelation.
Thank you for your thoughtful and interesting reply. I was annoyed when I wrote it, as I’m sure you could tell.
May you be blessed this day in a way very special to you, and always with the joy of the Savior.
You are very kind and I pray your annoyance has been lifted.
Excuse me but why all the bashing of the Catholic Church over a newspaper article it publishes..Bear in mind that article was written by a fellow second hand from a hindu article and it is his opinion only, not the official word of the Church...
As for those leaving the Church because of this and similar articles, you need to look deeper at the history of the Church which has protected Western civilization for centuries,and fought Fascism and Communism tooth and nail....Come to your senses already and think about the religious values it upholds vs the humanistic paganism so rampant in many societies today..
I know tons of RC. Family, classmates, etc.
The point is you all rationalize that somehow
what you are doing is not what you are doing.
Like you just did !
No, the Catholics you know may “rationalize”.
Parish shopping is not a big giant secret. Tell your friends to come out of the darkness. No one cares at all if they seek a parish that is more fitting to their needs.
Catholics do it all the time and Most Catholics agree with it as well.
>>I rather imagine that there are still rules, at least in
principle, about one’s parish.<<
What rules?
Where?
Maybe it’s a regional thing. I lived in a suburb of Cleveland called Brook Park. Our nearest parish was SS Peter and Paul, up the street. We belonged to a parish two suburbs over in Berea OH, because my Great Uncle was the pastor. It was a Polish Parish.
I’m not really sure where you are getting your ideas about rules. There are NO rules about where you have to belong. Seriously. If you can find any, post them. Cause I have been at parishes all my life. I’ve lived in different cities. People in my area North of Detroit drive into the city and belong to parishes there. Others drive to my area because my current parish is very traditional.
Show me the rules. Cause with a Parish Priest and a Bishop in my family, I’ve never heard of them.
Catholic "law" is very messy in the eyes of Protestants because it's all about a grand principle -- but with numerous exceptions. This is foreign to English Common Law on which our legal system is based, so there are lots of opportunities for misunderstanding.
Exactly. It's confusing for most Catholics in the US as well, because Canon Law draws largely from the old Roman-style legal systems. It's a completely different line of thought. The geographical boundaries are probably still in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, but it's not something that will be enforced.
Also, the operation of the Church is very Italian. All I can say about that is, having lived in Italy for the last three months, it's a wonder anything gets done in the Church.
>>But I think there used to be geographic boundaries for parishes:<<
I don’t think that was ever the rules, BECAUSE of what you are stating.
Otherwise we would have been at the Irish parish instead of the Polish parish.
>>There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their ‘work’ to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.<<
You haven’t spent much time over at the Religion Forum have you?
There are CONSTANTLY articles posted about what is coming out of the Vatican. Are you saying that you want Catholics to post articles that you conceive to be “negative coming out of Rome”?
Did you think that perhaps we don’t see it as negative?
We actually read what comes from the Vatican (Rome is a city) and not what the MSM writes about it. So instead of posting all the “negative” things, we spend our time saying, “Have you gone to the source and actually read it or do you believe Anti-Christian Reuters about this?”
I swear, if quotes from the Pope were given the same scrutiny as those from GWB or Ronald Reagan, we would have time to actually discuss with you. But the Pope can say “It’s a nice day”, AP writes Pope says “Pope says protestants are damned to hell.” and FReepers take it as gospel.
Now if you want to say that it’s my way of “bitterly complaining about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.” I’m going to tell you that when we complained about the lies and distortions of the words of GWB, the mainstream media said the same.
But hey, if you want to dislike the Vatican more than the Mainstream Media’s distortions and blame it on the Catholics, that is your right.
Now you’ve got me interested. I’m betting that it’s one of those rules which exceptions and general contempt have so weakened through desuetude that no one thinks about it (except me) anymore. My one copy of the canons is out of date, darn it, or I’d go check it out.
I think I do remember that when SS Pete’s opened by us, someone came to the house to get us to join there but my Mom told them we were Polish and that was that.
My parish St. Adalbert’s and the other parish in Berea, OH, St. Mary’s were both ethic parishes with long histories. Berea had quarries that attracted the Poles and Irish. When I was in 6th grade, we celebrated 100 years of our parish.
So maybe it’s an ethnic thing.
But I'm STILL not sure how it connects to the lie on which this thread is based.
This is the first thing I don't get:
Who allows anyone to present themselves as acceptable practicing Catholic? NONE of these lay or standing have had their practices tossed out as being against the Church.The view Protestants have of the Church starts with the assumption that there is a kind of Secret Police which knows what everyone is thinking and doing and which immediately and effectively suppresses what it doesn't like.
This is, of course, ridiculous. Five minutes of reasonably careful thought about a vaguely autocratic polity with a billion members (give or take) would lead to the conclusion which accords with the facts: The Catholic Church is one of the most disorganized bodies in human history. That is has survived at all is, to me, a strong indication of God's favor. Certainly we cannot credit the bozos in charge.
Old joke #1: "I don't believe in organized religion, I'm a Catholic."
Old joke #1: Somebody asked Pope John XXIII, "How many people work in the Vatican?"
The Pope answered, "About half of them."
Also, whether by design or indolence I don't know, But the Catholic Church takes to heart the plea of the gardener to spare the tree another year, and tries to dig around it and supply it with manure (something the Church has in abundance) in hopes that maybe one day it might bear good fruit.
The claim can be made until the sun turns black that Marx is an unacceptable political doctrine, but I can point to nation after nation around this globe that does indeed practice varying degrees of Marxism.Including our nation. O'ROurke's line about Socialism being Communism by the drink is on the money. And what with "liberation theology" in South America Various sorts of Marxism frequently make assaults even on the Vatican. But then God raises up guys like J2P2.
What from our independence that separates US from all other nations is the stated acknowledgment that the 'rights' of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness come from the Creator. But that is not good enough for the small minds of man because they crave power and authority in establishing themselves as 'gods' not only over these rights but over all rights.10-4
I believe with all my being that every individual has the God given right to choose what path they will follow. But as it is Written the deceiver was filled with the pride of his own intellect and beauty he rebelled and decided he would be God. Welll we are nigh down that path of where all souls that choose to 'see' the kingdom of God (John 3) have passed through this flesh age."Age" talk makes me anxious. There seem to be so many different ways of describing the time between the Cross and the Kingdom.
Back when the Heavenly Father established His government recorded in the Judges we are told that the Heavenly Father told Gideon to cull down his army to 300 for the purpose of the people knowing WHO gave them the victory.You're claiming personal experience of the Vatican? You're discounting J2P2's support of "solidarity in Poland? You're ignoring the many quotes about subsidiarity presented on this thread? Subsidiarity is the notion which stabs central-government socialism in the heart.Paul says that what happened to them is written for our admonition as to what would be again to bring about the end of this age. The majority has never ever stayed very long on the side of 'right'. IT is recorded. I call them as I encounter the facts and I know from personal experience it is NOT a lie to state there are Marxist practicing a 'social gospel' right smack in the middle of that church.
I WILL grant that a frightening number of US Bishops misunderestimate the importance of subsidiarity. But as a sister lay Dominican reminded my, ANYONE can, and sometimes should offer "fraternal correction" to any member of the Church. The Patroness of the Lay Dominicans is St. Catherine of Siena who was not the least bit reserved in jerking not around only her confessor but the Pope himself. She was canonized not in spite of but largely because of this.
This paying of great respect to lay people who sass their ecclesiastical "superiors" is something many Protestants fail to appreciate.
But lest you think I believe for an instant this church is alone in whitewashing Marxist ideology as part of their religious doctrine, NOT SO. I came from a majority of Baptist of some form or other, and the majority of them were first born and bred democrat and they HATE with all the 'red' blood passion everything Republican/Conservative, and notions the Ten Commandments are still in effect.I am a refugee from the Episcopal Church. Need I say more?
There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their 'work' to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.There is RARELY a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative [allegedly] coming out Rome that does not in fact contain lies, misstatements, misunderstandings, and false representations about our faith and practice. The eagerness of Protestants whom I have never met to tell me what I Believe, think, feel, and do is remarkable.
Christ warned the first sign of His return was deception, MASS deception and my friend it is gone viral around this globe. And neither you nor I nor your church is going to stamp out that deception.So I should just shut up while people tell me that my brothers and sisters and I believe, think, feel, and do things I know we neither think, feel, nor do? I believe the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church which is the Body of Christ. I believe that God keeps His promise, about the nature of which we probably disagree.
SO, once again, an assault is started with a false claim and then the follow-up arguments try to take the contention elsewhere. I would like to suggest that if our Protestant brothers and sisters want to discuss in a serious way what they perceive to be the errors and failings of our Church they might consider not starting with offensive and false characterizations.
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