Guns quit on US troops during intense battle in Afghanistan

Washington Examiner ^ | Oct. 12, 2009 | Richard Lardner

[re_tail20]

In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

[4rcane]

ive read several reports that the m4 jams up, like 8 times more than new models. Why can’t they come up with a system that NEVER jam up. This is life and death. Having it jam up every 15k round and require it constantly cleaned is ridiculous

[Pearls Before Swine]

This will surely bring up a discussion of the relative reliability of piston versus direct impingment gas systems at high temps and high rep rates.

[Iron Munro]

Why can’t they come up with a system that NEVER jam up.

It's been done - its called the AK-47.
.

[mikelets456]

There are more factors...how many rounds have been put through these guns? When were they last cleaned? Was the ammo “bad” and had problems ejecting?

Long story short....with good ammo, proper cleaning and NEW weapons jams are almost a non-issue. Will guns jam, yes. Should this type of problem happen? No it should not...is it impossible? No.

Bottom line...get these guys what they need and replace their weapons in reasonable amount of time!

[pfflier]

This sounds like the redux of the original M-16 story from Vietnam. I’m wondering how much is valid and how much is from the leftist playbook?

[elpinta]

“It’s been done - its called the AK-47.”

Bears repeating.

[Sons of Union Vets]

Where are these unreliable weapons being manufactured? China???

And if manufactured in the U.S., how many of the weapons’ components are manufactured in China or some other “unfriendly” country???

Where are all the D.O.D. inspectors??? Have inspection responsibilities that are designed to make sure that weapons manufacturers are conforming to the standards spelled out in their government contracts been “outsourced” to private entities???

One can understand the need on the part of the government
to save a buck.....but if it is at the expense of the safety of our sons and daughters serving overseas, someone needs to start inspecting the “inspectors!!!” PDQ!

[knarf]

Why aren't they picking up the fallen AK's and ammo?

I never understood that ... all the cache's we've found, and we destroy them.

[Oldpuppymax]

Undoubtedly far too many big money congressional contributors involved in the manufacture/procurement of these undependable weapons to permit a change OR investigation. Better several dead marines than Jack Murtha losing a few bucks.

[FateAmenableToChange]

“It’s been done - its called the AK-47.”

Even worse, Bushmaster has a replacement set of innards for the M-16/AR platform that replicates the reliability and clean firing-ness of the AK. Pull out the current gas system, drop the bushmaster in, and you've got the best of both worlds.

[raybbr]

Why aren't they picking up the fallen AK's and ammo? I never understood that ... all the cache's we've found, and we destroy them.

Because it's not in the manual.

[PAMadMax]

FN SCAR....There, that’ll fix it

[mbs6]

Maybe they can contract Ruger to start building these for the military:

http://www.ruger.com/SR556/

[PAMadMax]

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF054&gid=FNG006

[Uri’el-2012]

This sounds like the redux of the original M-16 story from Vietnam. I’m wondering how much is valid and how much is from the leftist playbook?

This sounds like the redux of the original M-16 story
from Vietnam. I’m wondering how much is valid and how
much is from the leftist playbook?

[Iron Munro]

Undoubtedly far too many big money congressional contributors involved in the manufacture/procurement of these undependable weapons to permit a change OR investigation. Better several dead marines than Jack Murtha losing a few bucks.

For forty years our military has been outgunned on the front lines because they are saddled with weapons that were selected for political reasons as much or more than performance in combat.

Reading the well documented history of the Vietnam era change from the M-14 to the M-16 will enrage you and bring tears to your eyes.

Many men died needlessly as politicians and lobbyists manuevered to defend their decision to purchase the M-16 by discrediting men on the front lines.

This is just the latest chapter in that story.

[Sarajevo]

Many of the troops are oiling their weapons after cleaning. This is a desert environment. The weapons needs cleaning, but it must be kept free of oil or dust will gravitate to the operating parts like stink on feces.

[4rcane]

I think the Israeli Tavor allow this. Tavor uses NATO and AK ammos. Its a good idea. I wonder how Tavor stack up against the M4. Israel have a good reputation in picking the best

[WalterSkinner]

..from wiki

In the fall of 2007, the Army tested the M4 against three other carbines in "sandstorm conditions" at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland: the Heckler & Koch XM8 rifle, Fabrique Nationale de Herstal SOF Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the Heckler & Koch HK416. Ten of each type of rifle were used to fire 6,000 rounds each, for a total of 60,000 rounds per rifle type.[7] The M4 suffered far more stoppages than its competitors: 882 stoppages, 19 requiring an armorer to fix. The XM8 had the fewest stoppages, 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones, followed by the FN SCAR with 226 stoppages and the HK416 with 233.[8][9] The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages—termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear—the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem. The Army said it planned to improve the M4 with a new cold-hammer-forged barrel to give longer life and more reliable magazines to reduce the stoppages. Magazine failures caused 239 of the M4's 882 failures. Army officials said the new magazines could be combat-ready by spring if testing went well