Congress' H-1b Program is Displacing Daughter of Programmers Guild President Out of the Job Market

Programmers Guild ^ | September 11, 2009

[anymouse]

All your jobs belong to foreigners.

[Dubya]

Bump

[Tax Government]

Need to terminate the H1B technical visa program in its entirety.

[1066AD]

H1-b is mostly a scam, seen it first hand. In many cases it’s been dreadfully abused & exploitive of the visa holders.

Unscrupulous companies are now setting up shop in the US and then (ab)using the L-1 to bring in people for “training” but in fact contracting them out as low paid help.

[freedumb2003]

IT development is a craft, not a profession today.

I constantly have to deal with Indian H1-B developers who can’t see beyond the specs in front of them. If I wanted someone to just bang out code, I could body shop it to China.

The value in IT is in understanding what is needed and marshaling resources to match that need. That includes definition, clarity, specifications, feedback, quality assurance, standards, etc.

I have run projects that use offshore resources and that part is easy, once you put the proper structures in place.

But trying to teach an Indian H1B developer that they can’t “hard code” values and why you need to instantiate inference is like giving a pill to a cat.

It has to do with their world view.

[La Lydia]

Sorry, you are not important enough for Congress to protect your interests. Nor is this young woman who just graduated. Pretty soon -- and I mean very -- no American kids aren't going to want to take the time and trouble to study for such a demanding career, because THEIR Congress has managed to edge them out of the job market in THEIR country. Here are the responsible parties, members of the Senate and House Immigration subcommittees:

Democratic Members Charles E. Schumer, New York (Chairman) Patrick J. Leahy, Vermont Dianne Feinstein, California Richard J. Durbin, Illinois Sheldon Whitehouse, Rhode Island

Republican Members John Cornyn, Texas (Ranking Member) Charles E. Grassley, Iowa Jon Kyl, Arizona Jeff Sessions, Alabama

Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) [Chairman] 202-225-3072 202-225-3336 http://forms.house.gov/lofgren/webforms/landing.html Howard L. Berman (D-CA) 202-225-4695 202-225-3196 http://www.house.gov/berman/contact/ Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) 202-225-3816 202-225-3317 http://www.jacksonlee.house.gov/contact.shtml Maxine Waters (D-CA) 202-225-2201 202-225-7854 http://www.house.gov/waters/IMA/issue.htm Pedro Pierluisi (D-PR) 202-225-2615 202-225-2154 http://pierluisi.house.gov/email.html Luis V. Gutierrez (D-IL) 202-225-8203 202-225-7810 http://luisgutierrez.house.gov/singlepage.aspx?newsid=1262 Linda Sanchez (D-CA) 202-225-6676 202-226-1012 http://www.lindasanchez.house.gov/index.cfm?section=contact Anthony Weiner (D-NY) 202-225-6616 202-226-0218 http://weiner.house.gov/email_anthony.aspx Charles A. Gonzalez (D-TX) 202-225-3236 202-225-1915 http://www.gonzalez.house.gov/index.php? option=com_content&task=view&id=170 Bill Delahunt (D-MA) 202-225-3111 202-225-5658 william.delahunt@mail.house.gov

Steve King (R-IA) [Ranking Member] 202-225-4426 202-225-3193 http://steveking.house.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactUs.ContactForm Gregg Harper (R-MS) 202-225-5031 202-225-5797 http://harper.house.gov/contact/ Elton Gallegly (R-CA) 202-225-5811 202-225-1100 https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml Dan Lungren (R-CA) 202-225-5716 202-226-1298 http://lungren.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content& task=view&id=146& Ted Poe (R-TX) 202-225-6565 202-225-5547 http://poe.house.gov/contact/contactform.htm Jason Chaffetz (R-UT)

[The Antiyuppie]

I wish I could publish some of the code I’ve seen from India in a “joke book” for programmers, but for obvious legal reasons, I can’t. And a lot of it is from people with MS degrees (from somewhere). EVEN IF you give them the spec in sparklingly clear terms (sometimes taking longer to do than then actually writing the code yourself), yes - it will work, but it’s unmaintainable, performs badly outside of a test environment, and for that and other reasons, is not scalable.

There are certainly “offshore” programmers as good as or better than “onshore” programmers. But they, too, price themselves out of the market - how does it go? The bad chases out the good?

There seems to be a critical thinking skills shortage, and it isn’t a problem unique to the US.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Weren’t problems like this one of the reason that, ahem, unions got started in the first place?

Can we take a page from the liberals’ playbook here?

[markman46]

that’s no lie, either the job’s go to India, or the Indians come here. either way an American is out of a job

[freedumb2003]

>>EVEN IF you give them the spec in sparklingly clear terms (sometimes taking longer to do than then actually writing the code yourself), yes - it will work, but it’s unmaintainable, performs badly outside of a test environment, and for that and other reasons, is not scalable.<<

O M G, you’re ME! And yes, I have many times done the development work myself and then “retro-spec’d” it and labeled the whole process JRAD (LOL).

I am sure you have been in this conversation:

Me: “Why are you looking for a ‘4’ in the 3rd position of this field?”
Indian: “They told me that is how I know it is an asset.”
Me: What does the architecture say how to identify an asset?”
Indian “A ‘4’ in the 3rd position is what the user said”
Me: So, joining your table to the type table and seeing the account type like the spec said wouldn’t be better? That way if a new CEO shows up who wants to eliminate positional value coding your program would continue to work. Your way it dies almost immediately.
Indian: But I have to rewrite the whole program!
Me: The spec said to do the join.
Indian: But this is easier and faster! And we already tested it!

*sigh* You can’t always do a code review before the damn thing is done.

I don’t have that problem with my Chinese developers. They do what the spec says and if it won’t work or isn’t clear, they stop and get clarification.

It is the ignorance/arrogance threshold.

If they were to end the H1B tomorrow, my life would be much, much easier.

[coon2000]

I deal with this every day in the contract world. H1-B visa is nothing more than indentured servitude.

Example: The Indian body shops put 8 people in a two bedroom apartment (low rent) and pay them $12/hour. They then charge companies like AT&T, Microsoft, Home Depot, etc. $48/hour. The same job that an American would be paid $50/hour for which is the prevailing wage. The Indian worker must be a good and unquestionable worker or the Indian body shop yanks his Visa, and he is sent back to India. As soon as he gets his green card he becomes the most difficult SOB to deal with because he is so pi$$ed at what he dealt with for the last 3 years.

So the Indian body shop makes a lot of money (at least $600,000 per year on this one stable of Indians less maybe $6,000 for rent, plus they have a lot of stables), AT&T might save a little money, an Indian gets a low paying job and an American software engineer goes to work serving coffee at Starbucks.

[Oldexpat]

It seems the only issue that the GOP and Rats all agree on is screwing native americans by importing more and more legal and illegal workers.
We should be able to recruit some additional tea party people on this issue.

[Blue_Ridge_Mtn_Geek]

“All your jobs belong to foreigners.”

More accurately, the jobs belong to those who will work for less, and who persuade the employers that their lower cost services are comparable to the services provided by those whom they replace.

The employers may be mistaken, and if so they will pay the price. Those who are displaced either demonstrate the value of their services at higher prices, or look for other lines of endeavor.

Or they vote for protectionists who will buy into their demands for legal barriers to their lower-priced competitors.

[Fee]

So in the end who is the evil one. Corporate America. Something many freepers have a hard time coming to grip with. One thing good about recessions and depressions, it makes someone look at economics in a realistic way and not an ideological way. Free trade, globalism and open borders have consequences. When your job is on the line everything becomes real.

[meadsjn]

One thing good about recessions and depressions, it makes someone look at economics in a realistic way and not an ideological way. Free trade, globalism and open borders have consequences.

So true. Our economy is in precisely the sad shape it is in because of the corporate decisions that have been made over the past couple of decades.

Many companies won't survive this depression, precisely and only because they will refuse to face reality and change the way they make decisions and conduct their business.

We should not be bailing out any of them.

[Beamreach]

So in the end who is the evil one///////////////////////. business comunity and the politions. The pols pass laws to keep the cheap laber, and biz funds the politions reelection coffers. The u.s. can not compete on the world market and pay middle class wages........... we are in a baaaad spot.........

[Kevmo]

I’ve been following this issue since before I was a FReeper. It looks like someone’s been keeping up the H1B keyword pretty well.

Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/782105/posts
Monday, November 04, 2002 11:27:24 AM · by FormerLurker · 22 replies · 3,970+ views
Department of Computer Science - University of California at Davis ^ | Presented April 21, 1998; updated September 10, 2002 | Dr. Norman Matloff

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/705954/posts
Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee
Subcommittee on Immigration

Dr. Norman Matloff

Department of Computer Science
University of California at Davis
Davis, CA 95616
(530) 752-1953
matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu
©1998, 1999, 2000, 2001

Presented April 21, 1998; updated February 4, 2002

[CharlesWayneCT]

You have to wonder if some of the companies operating out of residential addresses aren’t just sham “companies” set up so people can bring their family and friends over from foreign countries into the states legally.

I support H1-B, but think it should be reformed to require all jobs be advertised, and that companies certify that no american applicants were received.

I’m a little wary of “prevailing wage” laws, because while the goal of making sure we aren’t hiring “underpaid” foreigners at wages that no american could accept is a good one, allowing government to determine what the “proper” wage is doesn’t strike me as a good solution either.

I am a free-trader, but don’t think we need to open our borders to foreign workers if we have american workers available.

The risk of course is that, if the companies have to pay higher wages here, they might just MOVE to the foreign countries, and then you’ll lose american jobs and tax dollars.

[coon2000]

Congress gives them the pass to do it so they do it. Then these American corporations turn around and expect us to buy from them or use their services. We are not a third world country, yet, so we cannot compete with them on a level playing field. If the only variable in manufacturing or services is people cost, then the only way the United States can be involved in globalism is that we become a third world. And once every nation is a third world, then there will be no third world. Or better yet, what would the future third world look like to the current third world? Don’t you feel so happy for your children and their children?

[coon2000]

You are right, both parties are destroying America. The GOPRATS are importing the third world here willingly and they do not give a damn what you think or say.